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179
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
3
4
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 3
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15
16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
17
CONTENTS: Testimony of Kennan Dandar.
18
DATE: June 4, 2002. Afternoon Session.
19
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
20 St. Petersburg, Florida.
21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
22
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
23 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
24
25
180
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN.
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
181
1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar.
2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have got a message back
3 from Mr. Pope that he checked with Judge Baird on
4 the 12th. And Judge Baird has no time on the 12th.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. FUGATE: He said that the 11th had been
7 selected. Obviously he didn't know that this
8 hearing would be going back in April --
9 THE COURT: Sure.
10 MR. FUGATE: -- and that they would like to try
11 to keep it. I said I would advise the Court of
12 that.
13 And then I also left the no court dates, the
14 dates you announced that we're not going to have
15 court, which I have as the 14th, 21st and the two
16 weeks of June 22nd through 26th and July 1st through
17 the 5th, so that he can also look for those dates,
18 as well.
19 And he asked counsel and I that -- Mr. Dandar
20 and Mr. Lirot not book those dates because he'll
21 also check with the Court on that.
22 And that is all I can tell you.
23 THE COURT: I don't want him to think they
24 can't book any of those dates because he wants to
25 set one hearing.
182
1 MR. FUGATE: No. That is all I said. Those
2 are the dates I passed on to him, and he'll try to
3 check the dates out.
4 THE COURT: Good. If he insists on having this
5 hearing on the 11th, Judge Baird and I will confer
6 and decide between us which is more important.
7 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge.
8 THE COURT: You may proceed.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, before lunch we talked a little bit about
11 phone calls. You had indicated that -- or maybe it was even
12 speculated -- that maybe Jesse Prince had used your cell
13 phone. Do you remember that?
14 A Yes. Many people --
15 Q Now, Jesse Prince, from the moment that you first
16 met him at the end of 1998, prior to him reviewing the PC
17 folders, he always had his own cell phone, didn't he?
18 A Not that I'm aware of.
19 Q When do you first remember him having his own cell
20 phone?
21 A My best memory is when he went to work for the
22 trust in June of 2000.
23 Q So prior to June of 2000, he didn't have a cell
24 phone?
25 A Not that I remember.
183
1 Q But once June of 2000 came about, he had a cell
2 phone?
3 A Well, he was at the trust. Yes, for sure he had a
4 cell phone when he was at the trust. Whether he had one
5 before that, unless you show me something, I can't remember.
6 Many times on these Minton numbers, also, I would
7 end up talking with Stacy Brooks, because she was there
8 quite a few times, and I would talk to her before I got to
9 talk to Mr. Minton.
10 Q Usually if you talked to her, then you would talk
11 to Mr. Minton?
12 A Not all of the times. Sometimes she would just
13 talk to me and I wouldn't be allowed to talk to Mr. Minton.
14 Q You wouldn't be allowed because of what?
15 A I don't know why.
16 Q And sometimes you just talked to Mr. Minton and
17 didn't talk to Ms. Brooks. Right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, if you go back to Exhibit 105, which is your
20 response to the request for production, right at the -- do
21 you see that there are four calls, two on October 18, 2001,
22 one on October 20, 2001, and one on October 22nd, 2001? Do
23 you see those calls?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And those were four calls again you initiated.
184
1 Now, my question to you is --
2 A I can't say that. But --
3 Q Well, you can say that you initiated those calls,
4 right?
5 A No. I can't say that. I can say that my phone
6 number initiated those calls. I can't under oath tell you
7 it was me.
8 Q All right. Now, can you tell, from what you
9 produced to us, whether it's your cell phone number that
10 those calls were initiated from?
11 A No.
12 Q Or your office number?
13 A No.
14 Q But you can tell from your office records as to
15 whether it was your cell phone or your office number.
16 Right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And if it is your cell phone, the chances are that
19 that was you that initiated the calls. Correct?
20 A No. There is no way to tell.
21 Q Now, Mr. Minton was deposed on October 11th and
22 12th, 2001. Is that right?
23 A That sounds right.
24 Q All right. And even though he had cut off the
25 phones and even though his second -- or third, whatever
185
1 deposition it was, was over, you were still -- somebody from
2 your cell phone and/or office phone made four calls to
3 Mr. Minton after all of that in late October, 2001. Right?
4 A Yes. That is what the records show, calls were
5 made.
6 Q And do you remember what you -- what interest you
7 had in talking to Mr. Minton after his deposition was
8 completed on October 11 and 12?
9 A No.
10 Q Now, you said, I believe, earlier today that
11 absolutely you never sent to Mr. Minton an advance version
12 or copy of an amended complaint before it was filed. Right?
13 A That is right.
14 Q Well, let me show you what we'll have marked as
15 the next exhibit.
16 THE CLERK: 145.
17 MR. WEINBERG: 145?
18 THE CLERK: 145.
19 MR. WEINBERG: So that would be Defendant's
20 145, Judge.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q I'll just give you this copy. Now, do you
23 recognize -- by the way, look at Defendant's 145 and tell me
24 if you recognize Defendant's 145 to be -- okay, there are
25 two pages at the end we're going to remove. They're not
186
1 part of that exhibit. I'll take those two pages.
2 Now, do you recognize Exhibit 145 to be a draft of
3 the fifth amended complaint that was -- oh, do you recognize
4 it to be a draft of the fifth amended complaint?
5 A No.
6 Q Well, did you -- when you did your drafts, is it
7 your practice to put at the top the date of the draft?
8 A No. No.
9 Q It's not?
10 A No. I don't think so.
11 Q Okay. Let me show you --
12 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach the witness,
13 your Honor.
14 THE COURT: You may.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q I have a notebook of all of the complaints filed
17 in this case. I'm going to show you, Mr. Dandar, if I
18 can --
19 A See, what is really weird is this last page that
20 has "Count 1, Error. Main document only," has "Count 8,
21 fraud --" or "Count 8, Count 9, fraud, error." And I have
22 no idea what all that is. That -- go ahead.
23 Q Let me show you --
24 MR. WEINBERG: If I can just stay here a
25 moment, your Honor?
187
1 THE COURT: You may.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Let me show you what I believe is an executed copy
4 of the fifth amended complaint that was filed with your
5 motion to add parties in late August, although this is
6 executed September 7, 1999. Right?
7 A Right.
8 Q And see at the top of that complaint you have got
9 the date, 9/6/99. Right?
10 A That is what that shows. I don't remember having
11 her ever doing that, though.
12 Q That is --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have that notebook, your
14 Honor?
15 THE COURT: All I have is a notebook that was
16 compiled for me a long, long time ago by Mr. Fugate
17 called "Compendium of materials requested by the
18 Court."
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if I could hand you this
20 notebook that has all of the versions of the
21 complaint in it, and I'll tell you which exhibit.
22 If you go to Exhibit -- if you go to Exhibit 6,
23 that is what I have shown to Mr. Dandar.
24 THE COURT: That is not in the fifth amended
25 complaint.
188
1 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
2 THE COURT: I said I don't think that is in the
3 fifth amended complaint.
4 MR. WEINBERG: The one I just handed you.
5 THE COURT: Well, the ones I have are the ones
6 that are filed.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, right. But let me
8 explain. This is the one that he -- when he had his
9 motion to add parties, he attached this as what he
10 wanted to file to his motion to add parties that was
11 filed in September of 1999.
12 Judge Moody ultimately denied his ability to do
13 these amendments. But this is what he filed as of
14 9/6/99 in his motion.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay?
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Do you see, under Tab 6, if you look at the
19 complaint, at the style at the top in the left-hand corner,
20 it has the date 9/6/99 on it?
21 A Top left-hand corner.
22 THE COURT: I see. I was just looking to see
23 if I could find the fifth amended complaint. I
24 don't have it. I'm not sure if I took it out.
25 MR. WEINBERG: In the notebook I just handed
189
1 you, fifth amended complaint, the first one that was
2 actually filed is under Tab 7, and there were some
3 amendments, and then the one adding David Miscavige
4 is under Tab 8.
5 THE COURT: I can't find my fifth amended
6 complaint.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. In the notebook I handed
8 you, the one that is actually extant now is Tab 11,
9 I think that is the one you are looking for, that
10 was date stamped January 20th, 2000.
11 THE COURT: I now looked at the second amended
12 complaint, third amended complaint, fourth amended
13 complaint. None of them have a date stamp on it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this one does. The last
15 exhibit in that notebook I just handed you, this
16 one, I guess, if you go to Exhibit 11, that is the
17 one you're looking for that has a date stamp on it.
18 THE COURT: Yes. Okay. I -- the trouble is, I
19 can't find mine, but I'm sure mine looks like this.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Absolutely.
21 THE COURT: It does not have the date stamp.
22 That is the clerk's stamp.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That is the clerk's stamp.
24 THE COURT: But whatever it is you are
25 referring to in the left-hand corner does not.
190
1 MR. WEINBERG: Right. But the one I'm
2 referring to, as he said, he didn't remember doing
3 that.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Tab 6 does have the date 9/6/99 on it, correct?
6 A Yes. But can you show us that this came from the
7 clerk's file?
8 Q It's what you filed as part of the motion.
9 A Well, I wish you would have asked me, I could have
10 brought my file and then I can tell you one way or another
11 whether that is correct.
12 THE COURT: Why would he file -- I'm kind of
13 curious why somebody would file something as part of
14 a pleading that wasn't what he filed.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Because he made a motion to
16 amend and to file this particular -- and asked leave
17 to file this complaint.
18 Then we had a hearing on his motion for leave
19 to file this version of the complaint. And that is
20 the hearing that ultimately took place in I think it
21 was October that Judge Moody denied his ability to
22 do that because of the contract.
23 And then, after that, he prepared a new motion
24 to file a fifth amended complaint which was filed in
25 November to add David Miscavige as head of the Sea
191
1 Org. That was argued in December, and ultimately
2 the complaint that was clerk-stamped January 20,
3 2000 is what resulted.
4 THE COURT: If you are saying this was filed,
5 so be it. But what I have in my book that was
6 prepared for me by you-all does not have one amended
7 complaint in it, not one that has a date.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We will get the motion --
9 THE COURT: So I don't know what that is. But
10 maybe he can tell us what that is if he remembers
11 what that is.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Do you remember, when you filed your motion to add
14 parties in September of 1999, that you attached as an
15 exhibit to the motion a -- a copy of a proposed amended
16 complaint that would have added David Miscavige, Ray Mithoff
17 and Marty Rathbun?
18 A Yes. But whether or not this exhibit is what I
19 attached to the motion, I can't say.
20 Q Okay, we will get that and we'll show you the
21 motion as an exhibit.
22 A I'll have to look in my file.
23 Q Okay. I'm looking now at Defendant's Exhibit 145,
24 which is this draft and -- and -- of a -- of a fifth amended
25 complaint. And it has a date on the top of 8/30/99.
192
1 Now, my question to you is do you remember having
2 a draft at or about that date?
3 A No.
4 Q And do you remember E-mailing to Mr. Minton this
5 draft?
6 A No.
7 Q August 30, 1999?
8 A No. But I'm sure you can show me the E-Mail to
9 refresh my memory.
10 Q Do you deny that you E-mailed this draft to
11 Mr. Minton at or about August 30, 1999 before the fifth
12 amended complaint was filed?
13 A To Mr. Minton? Right, I would not have done that.
14 To Ms. Brooks or Mr. Prince, it's possible.
15 Q Well, did you E-Mail drafts of amended -- of the
16 fifth amended complaint to Ms. Brooks up in New Hampshire on
17 Mr. Minton's computer?
18 A I don't remember -- well, no, I don't remember
19 doing that.
20 Mr. Prince, I'm sure he had a draft of all my
21 drafts -- he had a copy of all my drafts because he was in
22 my office at that time working on this.
23 Q Well, did you authorize Ms. Brooks or Mr. Prince
24 to give Mr. Minton draft copies of the amended complaint?
25 A I don't think so. No.
193
1 Q Well, not think so? Or did you not?
2 A Well, I'm pretty sure I didn't. Okay. If they
3 were already filed, anybody can get anything. But after --
4 I mean, before they're filed, I don't recall ever giving
5 Mr. Minton anything.
6 Q Well, that one that I have just showed you,
7 Defense Exhibit 145, there was never a complaint in that
8 version that was filed, was there, as it sits in that -- in
9 that document?
10 A This is a gobbledygook, as far as I'm concerned.
11 This looks like someone trying to scan it. I can't tell you
12 what this is.
13 There is some language in here from the fifth
14 amended complaint that was filed in September with the
15 motion. But I can't tell you what this is supposed to
16 represent. I don't know why it's so poorly organized.
17 Q Okay, let me mark as 146 -- Defense Exhibit 146 --
18 the following document. Now, do you remember E-mailing
19 Defense Exhibit 146 to Mr. Minton prior --
20 A No --
21 Q I'm sorry. Let me finish my question.
22 A I'm sorry. Go ahead.
23 Q -- prior to this version of the fifth amended
24 complaint being filed?
25 A This version, meaning 146, which has a date on the
194
1 top left corner of 9/6/99?
2 Q Of 9/6/99, right.
3 A I don't remember doing that. But do you know
4 what? If I did, you should have an E-Mail that goes with
5 this. And I would be surprised. But --
6 Q Well, you don't always have the hard copy of the
7 E-Mail that goes with the attachments that may well reside
8 on the hard drive, right? Isn't that right?
9 A No, I -- I don't know. I'm not knowing that much
10 about it.
11 THE COURT: Do you really know?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't really know.
13 THE COURT: I wouldn't know.
14 A But this doesn't look like an attachment. This
15 looks like something that was actually filed.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Except that this version was -- was attached to a
18 pleading. But this particular version was using the word
19 "filed" meaning actually accepted by the Court. This
20 version, the 9/6/99 version, was never accepted by Judge
21 Moody, was it, he --
22 A No --
23 Q You were never allowed to file this?
24 A No, because we never argued the motion to add on
25 parties. We argued the motion to challenge the stipulation
195
1 we entered into in 1997.
2 Q So the answer to my question is no, this was never
3 actually filed as the fifth amended complaint, this was just
4 part of a motion that was actually filed, right?
5 A Right.
6 THE COURT: This Number 146, I can guarantee
7 you, was not attached as part of any E-Mail. This
8 is far too clean, far too nice. I have never gotten
9 anything quite that nice, I don't think, off an
10 E-Mail.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, I'm not going to
12 quibble with you, except I have.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, we pass between our
15 offices pleadings back and forth.
16 THE COURT: Yes, come to think of it, I get
17 enclosures.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: Not attachments. I mean, if
20 something comes to me and it's part of an E-Mail, it
21 isn't pretty like this.
22 MR. WEINBERG: But if it's --
23 THE COURT: This is weird. But if I get it as
24 an enclosure and I pull it up, then it can be
25 perfect.
196
1 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
2 THE COURT: That is all I know. And I don't
3 know the difference or anything of the sort, but if
4 it is a little icon on the bottom and I click on
5 that, it's like this. If it comes as part of an
6 E-Mail that something that it look likes 145, weird,
7 something you couldn't use. Why that is, you need a
8 computer man to explain it to us.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
10 Do you know how to do an enclosure?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
12 THE COURT: So 146 could be an enclosure?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it can.
14 THE COURT: Maybe when you say attachment, you
15 mean the same thing.
16 THE WITNESS: I believe he does.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I believe I do.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Then, I'm sorry, I think
19 of -- I have always been told you have to enclose
20 it, so I'm showing my ignorance.
21 MR. WEINBERG: My level of knowledge of
22 computers, I think, is lower than yours, so -- my
23 kids can --
24 THE COURT: I feel sorry for you.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I know. Yes, my kids feel sorry
197
1 for me.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Let me show you what we'll mark -- I don't need to
4 mark it. We'll give you a copy --
5 THE COURT: So can we assume Number 146 then is
6 not -- see, I can't find mine, but this is not the
7 filed version?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Right, it was an attachment to
9 what I'm going to show you and Mr. Dandar, right
10 now, as I understand it.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q We'll go to the file copy, Mr. Dandar, and show
14 you that.
15 But does this refresh your recollection on or
16 about September 7, 1999 you filed a motion to file amended
17 complaint to allege claim for punitive damages and motion to
18 add party defendants which would include Mr. Miscavige,
19 Mr. Minton and Mr. Rathbun, and that as part of that motion
20 you attached a draft of a complaint dated the day before,
21 9/6/99?
22 A That is most likely.
23 THE COURT: Does it say that? I mean, I just
24 don't know the answer to that. Does it say that in
25 this motion? Normally, if you're going to attach
198
1 something, you're going to refer to it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: We'll get the motion. But that
3 is what happened.
4 THE COURT: Well --
5 MR. WEINBERG: That is how we got it.
6 THE COURT: Is it Exhibit E, Exhibit F -- I'm
7 just saying is it listed as an exhibit? Yes,
8 Proposed Amendment, Exhibit A.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Normally, you would have that under
11 a tab, I suppose, or have it noted Exhibit A for the
12 record.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to actually mark this
14 as our next exhibit, this actual motion, if it is
15 okay.
16 THE COURT: What is that?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is 147, the one I just
18 handed you.
19 THE COURT: Is that the motion to file amended
20 complaint?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q So to eliminate all of the confusion here, you
24 filed a motion to add parties on September 7 attaching to it
25 as an exhibit a draft of a fifth amended complaint with this
199
1 date at the top left-hand corner which says 9/6/99.
2 Correct?
3 A No. Unless I see my file or the court file, I
4 can't say that. But most likely it looks -- I'm surprised I
5 would have a date up there.
6 Q Okay. But you're not suggesting that anybody
7 other than your office prepared a fifth amended complaint in
8 whatever form, are you?
9 A Right. Right. I just -- if I just saw my file or
10 the court file, then I could answer it 100 percent.
11 Q So that E-Mail attachment draft, whatever it is,
12 that I -- that I showed you with the August date at the top,
13 that may well be -- emanate from your office and be an
14 earlier draft of what was going to be the fifth amended
15 complaint. Correct?
16 A It's possible. It's possible. But this
17 formatting and -- this doesn't look like an E-Mail. This
18 looks like someone attempted to scan it. And it looks like
19 it comes off the Internet somewhere. But I just can't
20 imagine what this is.
21 Q Now, if you look at that draft which is Exhibit --
22 A 145.
23 THE COURT: 145.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q -- 145, that -- well, if you look at the 9/6/99
200
1 draft of the fifth amended complaint, that has the end of
2 cycle allegation in it, correct?
3 THE COURT: Tell him where.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q At Number 34? Paragraph 34?
6 THE COURT: Of what number now?
7 MR. WEINBERG: 146, which is the version that
8 was filed with the motion.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q That has end cycle in Paragraph 34. Right?
11 A Right.
12 Q That has the allegations about letting her die,
13 essentially, correct?
14 A Right.
15 Q Now, in Exhibit 146 --
16 A We are on 146.
17 Q 145, I mean --
18 A You want to know if it's in there?
19 THE COURT: Well, who would know --
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q It's not in there, is it?
22 THE COURT: -- unless he takes the time to read
23 it. Tell us what paragraph it is that matches up to
24 this paragraph. That might help.
25 MR. WEINBERG: 33, I think, matches up, I
201
1 think, with that paragraph.
2 A Well, 34 in the August one, which is 145, is the
3 same as 35 in the September one.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Right?
6 A So what is the question?
7 Q But the end of cycle which is 33, the August one,
8 I mean, that paragraph, that is most like 34 in the
9 September one, that is Paragraph 33, see, it talks about
10 extremist medical condition, it doesn't have end cycle, does
11 it?
12 A I'm still looking for 33 in Exhibit 145. I see --
13 oh, there --
14 THE COURT: Counsel, we'll have to do the same
15 thing with him I had the courtesy to do with the
16 witness earlier. He can take it home with him and
17 you can move on so we don't have to sit and go
18 through these things. I'll take it home, he can
19 take it home, and we can move on.
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
21 THE COURT: Then you can answer this question
22 tomorrow, Mr. Dandar.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: The same would be true of any other
25 large document. There is no time for him to sit and
202
1 read it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: That is fair.
3 A But it does not have end cycle in it.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q When you come back tomorrow, after having read it,
6 making sure you are right, then I'll ask you a few questions
7 about that.
8 A I'll check my office file, too.
9 THE COURT: If you are comfortable it doesn't
10 have it, go ahead and answer the questions.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, it doesn't. What he has
12 shown me, Exhibit 145, Paragraph 33, does not use
13 the parens and include the word "End cycle" as does
14 Exhibit 146.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q And do you know what happened between August 30,
17 1999 and September 6, 1999 so that end cycle got into the
18 complaint?
19 A No. I can speculate that I sat down with Jesse
20 Prince. But other than that, I can't tell you.
21 But I can tell you one thing. Mr. Minton had
22 nothing to do with this, for sure, 100 percent.
23 Q Now, when you have an opportunity, would you check
24 to confirm the August 30, 1999 document was a draft produced
25 in your office?
203
1 A I'll do my best. But like I said, this looks like
2 someone trying to scan something. It's just terrible.
3 THE COURT: Do lawyers keep drafts of pleadings
4 when they file the regular pleadings?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, usually on the computer,
6 actually.
7 THE COURT: Well, check and see if you have got
8 it.
9 THE WITNESS: I will.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Are you able to check whether you E-mailed it to
12 anyone?
13 A No. I don't keep that.
14 Q Okay.
15 A That is highly unlikely I did.
16 Q Now, changing subjects now, you incorporated the
17 LMT, is that right?
18 A But can I interrupt you? It is obvious from this
19 Exhibit 145, in comparing it with 146, 145 is definitely not
20 an attachment to an E-Mail. It's something that looks like
21 someone tried to scan and didn't know what they were doing.
22 Q And if Mr. Minton were to come in and say he
23 received it from you in E-Mail form, he would just be
24 mistaken?
25 A Terribly, unless he could show me proof.
204
1 Q And if he could show you proof, then you would be
2 mistaken?
3 A I would be mistaken, surprised, bewildered, all of
4 the above.
5 Q Now, going to a different subject, you
6 incorporated the LMT on or about October 19, 1999?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And --
9 A As the attorney incorporating it, yes.
10 Q And Dell Liebreich authorized you to do that,
11 correct?
12 A No. She had nothing to do with it at all.
13 Q Did she authorize the use of Lisa McPherson's name
14 in the Lisa McPherson Trust that you incorporated?
15 A With great hesitation. She just said "Okay." I
16 asked Mr. Minton not to do this at all, but he just said he
17 was going to do it.
18 Q Who asked Mr. Minton not to do it?
19 A I did.
20 Q Well, when did that conversation take place?
21 A While this was all going on. While we were racing
22 the clock with Bennetta Slaughter, while she had her
23 attorneys use the Lisa McPherson name -- four or five
24 names -- in incorporation.
25 I said, "Look, don't use her name. Just call it
205
1 something else."
2 Q And you didn't want Mr. Minton to establish the
3 Lisa McPherson Trust because, what?
4 A Because there was no need for him to use Lisa
5 McPherson's name.
6 Q So you just wanted to use a different name?
7 A Well, he was going to do whatever he wanted to do.
8 He had no lawyer. He asked me to help him. I said okay.
9 And he did what he wanted to do.
10 Q But if you were against it and your client wasn't
11 enthusiastic about it, couldn't you have stopped it?
12 A Well, actually, not legally.
13 Q Well, you certainly didn't have to do the
14 incorporation papers?
15 A Yes, but there was no reason to smack the guy in
16 the face and not do the incorporation papers if he's going
17 to do it anyway. I mean, '99, he was a great help to us, to
18 me, with this case. So I wasn't going to kick him out of my
19 office. He was going to do it. He was intent on doing
20 this.
21 Q Well, regardless of the name, whether it was Lisa
22 McPherson, or Ken Dandar, or Sandy Weinberg Trust or
23 whatever else, regardless of the name, were you enthusiastic
24 about the concept of creating an organization that could
25 reside in Clearwater, Florida, right literally in the face
206
1 of the Church of Scientology, to promote the cause, so to
2 speak?
3 A No.
4 Q So you were --
5 A Do you want to define cause? Well, I was never
6 enthusiastic about any of this. But I could tell you what I
7 thought was a good idea.
8 Q Well, what did you think was a good idea?
9 A A good idea was to help people who wanted to leave
10 the Church of Scientology and they had nowhere to go, they
11 had no former Scientologists who would sit down and counsel
12 with them and help them. They had nobody who would -- like
13 hundreds of thousands of dollars they wanted to get back for
14 whatever reason, they didn't know how to go about doing
15 that.
16 Some people, some attorneys, knew how to do it.
17 Not me.
18 But mostly the counseling. The counseling of
19 people who were in desperate need for counseling.
20 Q So what was a bad idea that Mr. Minton went ahead
21 and did that you didn't like?
22 A Well, the picketing, as Ms. Brooks testified in
23 this court. She and I were adamantly against his picketing
24 and his carrying on and his nonsense.
25 Q You were against the picketing?
207
1 A Oh, yeah.
2 Q And you had any number of conversations with
3 Mr. Minton about the picketing?
4 A Oh, yes. Many.
5 Q What? Face-to-face?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Well, in your office?
8 A Maybe. But mostly at the LMT.
9 Q So you actually had meetings with Mr. Minton at
10 the LMT?
11 A Not meetings. I happened to be there. I saw him,
12 for instance, with that outrageous Nazi picket sign. I
13 said, "You're not going outside with that."
14 He said, "Try to stop me."
15 And Stacy Brooks said, "Don't you go outside with
16 that Nazi sign."
17 He said, "I made it, I'm proud of it, I'm going to
18 use it." So what are you going to do, tackle him?
19 Q Well, you didn't have to stand in the picture with
20 him, holding signs like that, did you?
21 A It was not a picket. That was after a criminal
22 hearing which I think he prevailed in. And we just happened
23 to take photographs. And that is not the Nazi sign I'm
24 talking about.
25 Q You mean there were more than one Nazi sign?
208
1 A Right. There was one that was really offensive
2 that had the Swastika on it and something else. I think it
3 said -- it even had the word "Nazi" on it.
4 Q Well, weren't a lot of the signs that Mr. Minton,
5 Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince, and other people that were
6 associated with your side of the case -- weren't a number of
7 the signs that they were carrying over the years offensive?
8 A No, they were exercising their First Amendment
9 rights, as your client does. And it all depends on your
10 viewpoint of what is offensive.
11 The Nazi sign was offensive to me. It was
12 offensive to Ms. Brooks. It was offensive to other people.
13 Q Let me put --
14 A If you show me holding the picture of a Nazi sign,
15 well, I'll be bewildered.
16 THE COURT: I don't want to get into this
17 courtroom as to what sign is offensive because the
18 question is always to whom.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
20 THE COURT: I mean, I assume all those signs
21 would be offensive to any member of the Church.
22 What might be offensive to any member of the Church
23 might be offensive to me or it might not be. And it
24 might be offensive to someone else. It really
25 doesn't matter.
209
1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
2 THE COURT: I mean, offensive is in the eyes of
3 the beholder. Some things I think clearly could be
4 offensive to anyone. To anyone. But --
5 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q In any event, when you incorporated, I guess over
8 some protest, the Lisa McPherson Trust, you incorporated it
9 as a for profit corporation -- a for profit corporation,
10 correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, you had discussions with Mr. Minton about
13 whether it should be for profit or not for profit. Correct?
14 A Yes. I asked him why he was doing it for profit.
15 That was his decision.
16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I want to stop you just
17 a minute because I'm not sure what I'm to do with
18 this. This is a book you gave me. Was this in
19 evidence? Or is this something --
20 MR. WEINBERG: No, it was just easier to deal
21 with. But you know what, why don't I leave it back
22 here and bring it up when I refer to it?
23 THE COURT: You know what, I might keep it
24 because I can't find my fifth amended complaint.
25 MR. WEINBERG: No?
210
1 THE COURT: But this was just to be used when
2 you may use it again?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It just has, I think,
4 all of the versions that were either filed or
5 attached to motions to file. I think those were all
6 of the versions.
7 THE COURT: One of the versions that I didn't
8 have, so I guess I will keep this, although now you
9 are saying there are a bunch of different fifth
10 amended complaints, the only fifth amended complaint
11 I had seen from Mr. Fugate was the fifth amended
12 complaint that was, in fact, the complaint that
13 everybody is traveling on in this case.
14 MR. FUGATE: That is correct, Judge.
15 THE COURT: Whatever else went, I don't have.
16 I have the first amended, second, third, fourth and
17 fifth that is in existence.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: So if there are others -- I'll keep
20 this.
21 MR. WEINBERG: There are.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. WEINBERG: There were various iterations
24 that ended up in what we have now.
25 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't know there was a
211
1 fifth amended complaint not accepted, but I know the
2 second was accepted. But if there were more --
3 MR. WEINBERG: There were some in between, and
4 ultimately we have what we have now.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Which was that January 20th
7 clerk-stamp thing.
8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry, now get back to
9 wherever you were.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, actually, I wanted to --
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q So this didn't pass. I heard what you said about
13 the things being offensive to you.
14 Let me show you what is already in evidence as
15 Defendant's Exhibit 74, which is -- which is you,
16 Mr. Minton, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince and Mike Garko, your
17 trial team, and you are standing there in a picture with I
18 think a Nazi sign. And that certainly looks like
19 "Scientology, Hubbard's Third Reich," then it says, "Lisa's
20 blood on Scientology's hands."
21 My question to you is regardless of who that is
22 offensive to, wasn't that offensive to you?
23 A No, all I know, I was coming out of the courtroom,
24 Bob Minton or Jesse said, "Come on over for a picture," they
25 took our picture and we left. There is nothing planned
212
1 about this. There was no organization. It was just a
2 snapshot.
3 THE COURT: I also want to correct something
4 you said. Mr. Minton testified that those -- that
5 those things on there are Scientology things. Now,
6 I don't know if he's right or not, but whatever
7 those signs are -- on one it says, "Scientology,
8 Hubbard's Third Reich." I believe he was saying
9 that -- I don't know what they are.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I think he's saying that
11 the -- the symbols are not Swastikas but I think
12 Third Reich was --
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- was referring to it.
15 THE COURT: But the symbols, I believe he said,
16 were Scientology symbols.
17 MR. WEINBERG: He did.
18 MR. FUGATE: Yes, he said there were marks he
19 put on there himself.
20 THE COURT: Right. Right.
21 THE WITNESS: His expression on this particular
22 sign is that there is no freedom in Scientology,
23 just like there wasn't any in Nazi Germany. That is
24 why he made this particular sign. But this is not
25 the sign I'm talking about.
213
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q So this sign, you were comfortable with it?
3 A No, I wasn't comfortable with it. It was another
4 one that was just totally not in good taste.
5 Q Now, going back to the LMT, Mr. Minton funded the
6 LMT, correct?
7 A As far as I know.
8 Q And what was the reason -- now we're going to get
9 into the questions where we started to get sidetracked.
10 You said Mr. Minton explained to you why it was
11 for profit and not not for profit. And his reason was what?
12 A For privacy, to keep Scientology out of his
13 financial affairs in the corporation.
14 Q Did you tell him and discuss with him the fact
15 that when and if it ever came to pass that the sisters would
16 donate a part of the proceeds from this litigation to --
17 from the wrongful death case to the Lisa McPherson Trust,
18 that it would then -- that you would then convert it from a
19 for profit to a not for profit? Did you-all discuss that?
20 A No. Then Scientology can find all of the
21 contributors. So that wasn't discussed.
22 THE COURT: Can I ask you one question? I'm
23 not sure if I have this down right or not.
24 Mr. Minton wanted to be for profit so
25 Scientology could stay out of, what, LMT's financial
214
1 business?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Or his, Mr. Minton's, financial
4 business?
5 THE WITNESS: LMT.
6 THE COURT: LMT?
7 THE WITNESS: They couldn't get public
8 documents showing how much money went into a private
9 corporation.
10 THE COURT: If it is nonprofit, you have a lot
11 more access to contributors and this type of thing?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, as far as I know.
13 THE COURT: I'm curious. But isn't it a little
14 more difficult to do a nonprofit? I mean, you can't
15 just because you want to run up to Tallahassee and
16 get a nonprofit. Don't you get permission from the
17 IRS --
18 THE WITNESS: I did one only twenty years ago
19 and it was a missionary group. It was tremendous.
20 THE COURT: So if he -- Mr. Minton was in a
21 rush to try to beat somebody, he had to do it for
22 profit for that reason, too, I think.
23 THE WITNESS: It wasn't discussed. But you are
24 right.
25
215
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Did you discuss with him that some day it would --
3 it may well be converted to a nonprofit?
4 A No. That is ridiculous. That would defeat the
5 whole purpose.
6 Q Well, would it be ridiculous, if somebody were
7 donating a bunch of money to it, that it be converted to
8 nonprofit so you get a tax deduction?
9 A As long as it had anything to do with exposing
10 Scientology abuse, it would be ridiculous.
11 Q I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.
12 A As long as it had anything to do with exposing
13 Scientology abuse, it would be ridiculous.
14 Q Why is that? I don't follow you.
15 A Because then they would find out the financial
16 condition, they would get this -- there is a form that you
17 are allowed to copy of a nonprofit that discloses how much
18 is paid to officers and how much the contributions are and
19 money on hand. Again, I'm not a tax expert so I'm speaking
20 out of turn.
21 Q Is this something you do on regular basis,
22 incorporate companies for people?
23 A I have. It's not on a regular basis, but I have
24 done probably, I don't know, two dozen, in twenty years
25 plus.
216
1 Q And did you do this gratis for Mr. Minton, or did
2 you charge him for it?
3 A I didn't charge him for it. This is '99. He has
4 given me, what, over a million dollars? I don't think I
5 would charge him for it.
6 Q Let me show you what we'll mark as 148.
7 THE COURT: This extra picture, do you want it
8 back?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Because I already have it.
11 MR. WEINBERG: It's already in evidence.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q I show you what we've marked as Defendant's
14 Exhibit 148. Now, Defendant's 148 is a posting by
15 Mr. Minton dated 11/3/2000.
16 And I just refer you to the next-to-last page at
17 the bottom --
18 A The tab?
19 Q -- where it is tabbed. And there are a bunch of
20 questions, "Frequently Asked Questions about the Lisa
21 McPherson Trust" is the title of this thing.
22 But at the end it says, "Is the Lisa McPherson
23 Trust nonprofit?"
24 And Mr. Minton says, "Solely to protect the
25 privacy of financial supporters of the Lisa McPherson Trust,
217
1 we are registered as a for profit company. If we were
2 required to report the names of our contributors, we would
3 run the risk that Scientology could find out their
4 identities. They would then be subjected to harassment and
5 intimidation to punish them for supporting the LMT."
6 Then he says, "At some point in the future the LMT
7 may become a nonprofit organization."
8 But you didn't have that conversation with him
9 about it converting to a nonprofit down the road?
10 A No. This is a year after it was incorporated. It
11 speaks for itself. That is his thoughts a year later.
12 Q Okay. Now --
13 THE COURT: Is that a number, Counselor?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I put a number on it.
15 THE WITNESS: 148.
16 MR. WEINBERG: 148.
17 THE COURT: Are you moving these things into
18 evidence as we go?
19 MR. WEINBERG: I move -- yes, I'll move what I
20 marked into evidence, yes.
21 THE COURT: You need to do it one at a time
22 because, frankly, if there is an objection, we need
23 to hear it.
24 Mr. Lirot, do you have any objection to any of
25 these things?
218
1 MR. LIROT: I have no objection.
2 THE COURT: But in the future, if you want to
3 move them in, just move them in.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I'm glad we don't have to go back.
6 That is 145, 146, 147 and 148.
7 THE WITNESS: 145 hasn't really been identified
8 by me, subject to me going back tonight, tomorrow
9 morning, and checking it out.
10 THE COURT: What is 145?
11 THE WITNESS: That is this crazy complaint.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Draft complaint that has 8/30/99
13 on it.
14 THE COURT: Yes, 145, you are right, at this
15 point in time, I suppose -- well, it's in for
16 whatever.
17 THE WITNESS: Whatever?
18 THE COURT: It has not been authenticated,
19 frankly, what it is, but it is in, just like a lot
20 of this stuff is in. We just have to figure out
21 what value, if any, to place on it. Well, we don't.
22 I do.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Now, from time -- let me ask you about some folks
25 that were affiliated with the LMT. You filed some witness
219
1 lists in this case. Is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you filed an April 17, 2000 witness list which
4 I'll hand up in a second, and you filed most recently, on
5 April 24, 2002, an amended witness list. Is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. WEINBERG: And we will have the clerk mark
8 as 149 the witness list from 2000, and as 150 the
9 witness list from 2002.
10 THE COURT: Were there three?
11 MR. WEINBERG: There are two. Did I hand you
12 three?
13 THE COURT: No. You gave me two. I thought
14 you said there were three.
15 MR. WEINBERG: No. There are two. The first
16 one which is dated April of -- April 17 of 2000, is
17 149.
18 And the second one, which is dated this year,
19 April of 2002, is 150.
20 THE COURT: They are both April of 2002. One
21 is the 17th and one is the 24th, is that right?
22 THE WITNESS: No. One is 2000.
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 149 is April 17 of 2000.
25 THE COURT: The one I'm looking at is the 24th
220
1 of April, 2002.
2 MR. WEINBERG: That is 150.
3 THE COURT: That is 150?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Right, Exhibit 150. Then there
5 is 149 is April of 2000. Do you have that one? Did
6 I give you two of the same?
7 THE COURT: You must have given me two of the
8 same one.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. That wasn't too smart.
10 Here is the 2000 one. Give me one of those
11 back.
12 THE COURT: Yes, these are different.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
14 THE COURT: No wonder you try to confuse me.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not trying to confuse. I
16 already confused myself.
17 THE COURT: Okay, now I have them. Tell me
18 which is which. The 17th of April, 2000 is what
19 number?
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is 149 -- I believe that is
21 149.
22 THE COURT: And the one that is 2002 is number
23 150?
24 MR. WEINBERG: 150.
25 THE COURT: All right. We're all on the same
221
1 page.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Now, the -- there was a trial date back in 2000
4 where the first time we were thinking about having a trial
5 would have been June of 2000. Correct?
6 A We stipulated to it, six weeks in June of 2000.
7 Q Right. Prior to that time, just prior, April 17
8 of 2000, you filed Exhibit 149 which was notice of filing
9 plaintiff's witness list. Correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And then 150 is your most recent plaintiff's
12 witness list. Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now --
15 THE COURT: Are these the only two?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: Of the plaintiff's.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Of the plaintiff's.
21 I move these into evidence. And I was going to
22 ask a question about them.
23 MR. LIROT: No objection.
24 THE COURT: It will be received -- they will be
25 received.
222
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Now, there were a number of witnesses on both your
3 witness list in 2000 and your most recent witness list of
4 people that were employed at the LMT and/or sat on the board
5 or advisory board of the LMT. Correct?
6 A There were a few.
7 Q Well, let's -- let's go down the list. And on
8 149, this is in -- this is your 2000 witness list, on the
9 first page, Number 10, Gerald Armstrong. He was affiliated
10 with the LMT, wasn't he?
11 A I think he was on an advisory board, if --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- I'm not mistaken.
14 Q Then if we go to Number 31 on that list, Jesse
15 Prince, he was certainly affiliated with the LMT. Correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Marjorie Wakefield, she was affiliated with the
18 LMT, wasn't she?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Do you need to look at the Lisa McPherson Trust
21 list, the advisory committee list?
22 A Yes. If it is on there -- you tell me it's on
23 there, I'll agree with you.
24 Q It is on there, Defense Exhibit 81, "Marjorie
25 Wakefield, Advisory Committee."
223
1 A Okay.
2 THE COURT: Who is she? I never heard of her.
3 MR. WEINBERG: She's a former Scientologist.
4 THE COURT: I know. But why is she on your
5 witness list?
6 THE WITNESS: She, I believe, had a similar
7 experience to Lisa McPherson.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Number 65, Teresa Summers --
10 A Yes?
11 Q -- she was actually employed at the LMT, correct?
12 A At the time this was filed, that is correct --
13 well, wait. No. No. Wait a minute. No, that is not true.
14 I've got to look at their deposition date that I took. I
15 don't think she had anything to do with the LMT at this
16 time.
17 THE COURT: Why is -- what is she on your
18 witness list for?
19 THE WITNESS: She was a former Sea Org member
20 at Flag.
21 THE COURT: I know. But this case, what was
22 she on this case for?
23 THE WITNESS: She was going to talk about her
24 experience with end cycle; having someone die,
25 helping someone die who has a terminal illness.
224
1 There are actually policies written on that. And
2 she was going to talk about the income Flag was
3 generating per week, because at this time we had
4 punitive damages. She was the commanding officer at
5 Flag for several months. And I believe she left in
6 '98 as a Sea Org member, if I'm not mistaken.
7 THE COURT: So it was for your punitive
8 damages?
9 THE WITNESS: Punitive damages, and the
10 policies on helping someone with a terminal illness
11 to die.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Then number 68, Dan Leipold, he was on the
15 advisory committee of the LMT, correct?
16 A Right. And he was a witness, not -- never
17 co-counsel.
18 Q But you listed him as a witness. That is what I'm
19 asking you.
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Now, if you go to 150, which is the most recent
22 filing, correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q If you go to Page 2, Number 10, you have Peter
25 Alexander --
225
1 THE COURT: Could I ask one question? I'm
2 sorry.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: At the time this trial was going,
5 had the counterclaim been filed? I have just
6 forgotten.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It was filed on May 4 --
9 MR. MOXON: It was an affirmative defense at
10 that time.
11 THE COURT: But not nearly as elaborate as the
12 counterclaim, as I recall.
13 MR. MOXON: Yes.
14 THE COURT: So the counterclaim was not filed
15 when the first trial was contemplated?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It was a year later in
17 May.
18 THE COURT: And when this was filed, out of
19 curiosity, I had severed the counterclaim so I'm
20 assuming this witness list dealt with the wrongful
21 death?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. WEINBERG: When you say this witness list,
25 you are talking about 150, the April of 2002 --
226
1 THE COURT: Right, 150.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q If you go to April of 2002, go to witness number
4 10, that is Peter Alexander. He's on the board of directors
5 of the LMT, right?
6 A He was until he was asked to leave.
7 Q Right. But --
8 A Yes.
9 Q Oh -- but he was on the board of directors and he
10 was the producer of The Profit, as well, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And then Number 27, David Cecere, you have listed
13 as a witness this April?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q He was affiliated with the LMT. Right?
16 A He was fired by the LMT. Yes.
17 Q He was actually an employee. Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then on Number 45, Maria Pia Gardini, she was
20 affiliated with the LMT, wasn't she?
21 A I don't think so.
22 Q Well, what is she on there for, by the way?
23 A She is a former --
24 THE COURT: You know what, in a way -- well, I
25 guess we can do this. This is a little free
227
1 discovery here. We might as well.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I only have a few, I mean --
3 THE COURT: Yes, I don't know who she is,
4 either.
5 A She's an Italian physician who is a former
6 Scientologist, former staff member at Flag, who has personal
7 knowledge of isolation watches taking place only at the
8 Hacienda, the staffing berthing, in a particular room which
9 is a small room with bars on the windows so no one can
10 leave, and cockroach-infested Hacienda where the staff is
11 berthed. That is why she's on the list.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Okay, Number 69, Frank Oliver, you say "Former
14 Scientologist." He was affiliated with the LMT. Correct?
15 A You know, I can't say yes or no to that. If it is
16 on the LMT paper, though, I'll go with that. But I don't --
17 I don't --
18 Q Did you ever meet Frank Oliver over at the LMT?
19 A Sure, I did. He picketed. I met him in the
20 offices over there when I dropped in. But he's from Miami,
21 so I can't say what he has to do with the LMT.
22 Q And then '97, you have Teresa Summers again. And
23 at this time, certainly she had been an employee of the LMT,
24 correct?
25 A Yes, but she quit. So she's a disaffected -- if
228
1 that is the word to use -- LMT member. Former LMT member.
2 Q Then 103, you have Marjorie Wakefield still on
3 there. And she was part of the LMT. Right?
4 A If you say -- I mean, if the document says she
5 was, then, fine, I have no personal recollection.
6 Q Okay.
7 THE COURT: So you listed 109 witnesses, and
8 you have got, golly, "All witnesses identified in
9 depositions, interrogatories, all witnesses on
10 defendant's witness list," then you have 10 experts
11 and one, two, three, four, five, six main defendants
12 associated with LMT.
13 You said you didn't know about Maria Pia
14 Gardini -- sorry, ma'am. I'm sure I said that
15 wrong.
16 THE WITNESS: I think you did that right,
17 Judge.
18 THE COURT: Did I? Okay. And you aren't
19 positive about Marjorie Wakefield?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, only as -- I am positive if
21 I can either play her video deposition or --
22 THE COURT: No, no, you are not positive if she
23 is connected with LMT?
24 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
229
1 THE WITNESS: I mean, the paperwork by LMT will
2 disclose the names of those people.
3 THE COURT: Right. Is it true -- I don't know
4 myself, is this Maria Pia part of LMT? I never
5 heard of her until this very moment.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm under the impression
7 that her way was paid by the LMT to bring her from
8 Italy here for purposes of the case.
9 THE COURT: Is she on this list you have here,
10 this all-inclusive list?
11 THE WITNESS: She's on my list.
12 THE COURT: Number 81? No, she's not.
13 MR. WEINBERG: No, she's not 81.
14 THE COURT: How about this other lady?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Marjorie Wakefield, that is what
16 I'm about to hand up.
17 THE COURT: Is she on this, Number 81?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, right here, on the advisory
19 committee.
20 THE COURT: On the advisory committee? Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: Maria Pia Gardini was never
22 brought here for this case, although I did have the
23 opportunity to meet her, but not for this case.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'm not sure if it
25 matters so much if Ms. Pia Gardini is or isn't, but
230
1 at least she's not on 81 as a member of the board or
2 advisory committee member.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q By the way, on that April of 2002 list, that is
5 when you first identified Bill Franks as your Scientology
6 expert, correct, April 17, 2002?
7 A That is correct.
8 THE COURT: Is he listed under the expert
9 witnesses?
10 THE WITNESS: No, he's not.
11 MR. WEINBERG: But it says here --
12 THE WITNESS: But it does say -- call him a
13 Scientology expert.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Number 44, Judge, on that
15 Exhibit 150, it says, "Scientology experts." See
16 that?
17 THE COURT: No. I'm looking, Number 40 what?
18 MR. WEINBERG: 44.
19 THE COURT: Is Mr. Prince on here?
20 THE WITNESS: I'm just looking for that right
21 now. I can't see him. But he should be on there.
22 Well, at this time he was still -- I just
23 recently was able to convince him to come back.
24 MR. WEINBERG: He did not list Mr. Prince on
25 this one, I don't believe. But he did list
231
1 Mr. Franks, Number 44.
2 THE COURT: Well, I have news for you. There
3 are a lot of people on this witness list that I dare
4 say will not testify. Here is Mr. Miscavige listed.
5 I suspect -- do you have him under subpoena?
6 THE WITNESS: No. There are a lot of people
7 that will not testify.
8 THE COURT: Right. So, I mean, I don't know
9 exactly what -- maybe if we ever get to a case
10 management conference, we'll discuss these people.
11 But I do see that Bill Franks is listed as a
12 Scientology expert. It's odd, if he's a Scientology
13 expert, I'm not sure why he's not down under expert
14 witnesses.
15 THE WITNESS: You are right. And I need to add
16 on Jesse Prince. So I need -- I'll file an amended
17 one.
18 THE COURT: You better file an amended one.
19 THE WITNESS: Mr. --
20 THE COURT: I see a whole lot of former
21 Scientologists listed, a whole lot of them. And I
22 guarantee you that we're going to go through what,
23 if any, relevance they have and, if so, what it is.
24 And a lot of them may be limited, too. But that is
25 for another day, maybe.
232
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Talking about Mr. Franks for a moment, did you
3 have any conversations with him prior to putting him on this
4 list?
5 THE COURT: If that has something to do with
6 whether or not there is an agreement, if it has
7 something to do with whether or not he lied under
8 oath, I can't have you going into his trial strategy
9 and all that sort of stuff.
10 If it has something to do with the three things
11 that have been identified, you can ask that. If
12 not, you cannot.
13 MR. WEINBERG: We can wait. He said he's going
14 to call Mr. Franks, so we can find out when
15 Mr. Franks takes the stand.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Now, you had telephone communications, both from
18 your cell phone and your office and your home, to the LMT.
19 Correct?
20 A I doubt I had it from my home.
21 Q And there was telephone communication from the
22 LMT, from the various folks at the LMT, to various of your
23 numbers, including your cell phone, your office number, and
24 I think you'll find on those -- those records there are a
25 few to your home number.
233
1 A Okay.
2 Q Have you had a chance to go through or have
3 somebody from your office go through that big folder there
4 with the tabbed phone calls --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- from LMT?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And did you -- did you identify that there are
9 approximately 494 calls from the LMT to you -- to either
10 your cell phone or your office phone or your home?
11 A Well, I think that number, quantity, is correct.
12 I actually had someone prepare a chart for you and for the
13 Judge, which I'll have here tomorrow, that shows the
14 percentages of which person's cell phone was being used to
15 call me.
16 Q Well, how do you know whose cell phone it was, by
17 the way?
18 A Because I know Jesse Prince's cell phone number, I
19 know Stacy Brooks's cell phone number. For sure, those two.
20 Q And do you know the one Mr. Minton used at the
21 LMT?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you know he used Unit 1?
24 A I'm not sure. Did he say that? I don't know.
25 Q I'm asking you.
234
1 A No, I don't know.
2 Q Well, this chart that you are -- I guess we'll see
3 it tomorrow, but this chart, does it identify all of the
4 eleven cell phones at the LMT?
5 A Yes. Yes. And if someone had told us which phone
6 number Mr. Minton used, then I would be able to put that on
7 the list.
8 But I know for sure Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks.
9 And I know Jesse Prince, I believe, is 56 percent of the
10 time, 56 percent of --
11 THE COURT: I thought Mr. Minton -- excuse me a
12 second -- I think we're well past the question -- I
13 thought Mr. Minton testified he didn't use one of
14 LMT's cell phones for his own, he just picked one up
15 when he was in there. He had his own cell phone.
16 MR. WEINBERG: He had his own cell phone. But
17 I believe he said, when he was down here, he used
18 one of the LMT phones.
19 THE COURT: Right, sometimes. But he didn't
20 tote around an LMT cell phone, he had his own cell
21 phone. When he was around or --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
23 THE COURT: Or he would use one of his own --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Particularly he said he used
25 Unit 1.
235
1 THE COURT: I don't remember that, but if you
2 say he said it, I don't doubt it.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I think he said it.
4 THE COURT: Because I am sure you have reviewed
5 the transcripts and I have not.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q All right. Well, in any event, there were a lot
8 of phone calls from the LMT phones to either your cell phone
9 or your office. Correct?
10 A There were a lot of cell phone calls from Stacy
11 Brooks, and mostly from Jesse Prince to me. And, of course,
12 cell phones, you don't know where they are when they're
13 using their phone. But that is the majority. I would get,
14 from time to time, calls from John Merrett, from either a
15 cell phone or a LMT landline. I would get calls from Dee
16 Phillips, who is the fiance of Jesse Prince.
17 THE COURT: Why don't we save this for tomorrow
18 when he has a chart? I think that would be nice.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And we have our own
20 chart.
21 THE COURT: Good. Then we can look at charts.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Color-coded charts.
23 THE WITNESS: I'll put color on mine.
24 MR. WEINBERG: We'll do this tomorrow. But let
25 me just identify these records now.
236
1 THE COURT: What records?
2 MR. WEINBERG: There is one other set of phone
3 records that will go on our chart, and I just wanted
4 to identify them. And that was -- you also had a
5 request for -- you also had a request for production
6 with regard to calls from your office to the LMT.
7 Correct?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. You have to show
9 me.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 THE COURT: Is it a good time to take a break?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, maybe so. I have a lot of
13 numbers to go through.
14 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 2:30 by
15 the courtroom clock.
16 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:12 to 2:40 p.m.)
17 ______________________________________
18 THE COURT: Okay. You know, I guess since I'm
19 getting these transcripts, I mean, I probably don't
20 have to make all these excessive notes I make.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Sometimes when I take notes, I
22 remember them better.
23 THE COURT: I think so.
24 MR. WEINBERG: This is my next exhibit. I have
25 premarked them with the clerk, 151A and B.
237
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Now, in addition to the request to admit where you
4 identified the calls from you to Mr. Minton, and in addition
5 to that folder of phone calls from the LMT records that are
6 already in evidence that we're going to talk about tomorrow,
7 we're -- I also want you to look at 151A and B, which I
8 believe are your responses: 151A, which is plaintiff's
9 supplemental response to second request for production of
10 documents to counterdefendant, which is dated --
11 THE COURT: Who is counterdefendant?
12 THE WITNESS: The estate.
13 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, this is in the
14 counterclaim. And we made a request to produce to
15 the estate, which is the counterdefendant.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Just for the record, 151B -- and that finally --
19 151A is dated January 17, 2002. Then 151B is the second
20 supplemental response to this same request for production
21 which was filed on January 28, 2002, signed -- both signed
22 by you, 151A and B. Correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And the combination of 151A and 151B is your --
25 your tabulation of phone calls that was initiated from
238
1 either your office or your personal cell phone to the LMT,
2 is that correct?
3 A The document speaks for itself. But that is what
4 it looks like.
5 Q Who did that tabulation?
6 A Donna West.
7 Q 151A -- you can look at this tonight -- but my
8 records indicate 42 calls from either your office number or
9 cell phone from February of 2000 until sometime in October
10 of 2001.
11 And 151B, according to my tabulation, sets forth a
12 log for an additional 32 calls between April 19, 2001 and
13 December 7, 2001.
14 A I wouldn't trust any Nextel bill that says one
15 minute because that is usually a minimum charge even if
16 there is no connection.
17 Q Okay. And this -- am I correct that as with the
18 other exhibit that we looked at, that the numbers that were
19 checked was your cell number and your office number?
20 A Well, Nextel, it is only cell number. So the
21 Nextel bills are only a -- part of 151A, and the other
22 one -- whatever exhibit it is, let's see -- it would be the
23 landline from my office to the Lisa McPherson Trust, which
24 says it could be the trust, Jesse Prince, or Mr. Merrett who
25 used the trust as his Clearwater office.
239
1 Q Okay. You also had calls from Mr. Minton from
2 your phone at the LMT. Correct?
3 A I don't know.
4 MR. WEINBERG: All right. So I'll offer 151A
5 and 151B into evidence, your Honor.
6 MR. LIROT: No objection.
7 THE COURT: They will be received.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Now --
10 THE COURT: These, once again, just because I
11 don't have time to read the documents, are phone
12 calls he made from his cell phone or his office
13 number to LMT?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And, I mean, this is his
15 production. So it is whatever they can glean from
16 whoever's records they had. And there is some
17 explanation as to the limitations so far as the
18 records --
19 THE COURT: Some are not long distance and,
20 therefore, there would be no way to know, is that --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I think the explanation is for a
22 period of time, the Nextel numbers indicated the
23 calls, and at some period they didn't.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25
240
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Now, for your -- tonight, I want to give you the
3 opportunity to look at our compilation of these three sets
4 of records, the first request to produce which -- where you
5 listed your calls to Mr. Minton, the big production of the
6 LMT which is Exhibit -- which is Exhibit 97 which is behind
7 you where all those -- you know, those 600 -- or all those
8 494 calls. Then finally this Exhibit 151A and B. And --
9 A Well --
10 Q -- what we have produced we'll have marked as the
11 next exhibit.
12 MR. WEINBERG: And Mr. Dandar can take this
13 with him. And that will give him some -- and it is
14 a -- let me mark it as our next exhibit, 152.
15 And this goes together.
16 THE COURT: So that is a compilation of calls
17 from LMT to Mr. Dandar's and Mr. Minton's phones?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes -- well, no. What we've
19 done is so far in front of you, your Honor, is -- do
20 we have the exhibit number for the Dandar to Minton
21 calls? We'll pull that out.
22 What we've done is we've put together now three
23 sets of documents. We put together Defendant's
24 Exhibit 105, which is this exhibit where Mr. Dandar,
25 on the request to produce, identified calls from his
241
1 office to Mr. Minton.
2 We've put together Defendant's Exhibit 97,
3 which is those Nextel phone records behind
4 Mr. Dandar's head, with the 494 calls in it, your
5 Honor, which are the LMT calls -- from LMT to
6 Mr. Dandar, either cell phone -- you'll see three to
7 his home phone or to his office phone. There are
8 494 calls.
9 Then finally we have put in this list what we
10 just identified, which is 151A and B, which is
11 Mr. Dandar's response to the request to admit where
12 he has identified calls from his -- either his cell
13 phone or his office phone to LMT.
14 THE WITNESS: That is request for production,
15 not request for admission.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I mean request for production,
17 which is 151A and B which we just marked.
18 THE COURT: So 105 is Mr. Dandar's office or
19 cell numbers, right?
20 MR. WEINBERG: To Mr. Minton.
21 THE COURT: Right. 94 is LMT calls which were
22 all cell calls?
23 MR. WEINBERG: They are calls -- yes, they're
24 all the Nextel calls to either Mr. Dandar's cell
25 phone, his home phone, or his office phone.
242
1 THE COURT: So there are three, you say, to his
2 home. So the rest are all to his cell phone or
3 office phone?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Mostly to his cell phone,
5 but we've broken it out here.
6 THE COURT: And 151A and B are from
7 Mr. Dandar's office or cell to LMT?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
9 THE COURT: Okay. I got it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Now, in this exhibit, what we've
11 done -- in this exhibit what we've done, I have
12 marked this as 152 -- this actually goes with it --
13 this is your copy, you can take it home.
14 THE WITNESS: Well -- okay. I'm not taking
15 these 496 Nextel phone records home. I already
16 had --
17 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't tell you to take --
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: What we have done with you, let
20 me just go over with you and we'll go into detail
21 tomorrow once you bring whatever you have done.
22 The red numbers is Exhibit 105, which are the
23 Dandar to Minton calls that we talked about and
24 there are 77 of those.
25 The blue ones are what we just went over which
243
1 it turns out is Exhibit 151A and B, calls from
2 Mr. Dandar's cell or office to LMT.
3 And the black numbers represent those LMT
4 records of calls to Mr. Dandar. And we have further
5 broken those down because they're broken down in the
6 exhibit. There are 333 calls to Mr. Dandar's cell
7 phone, there is 3 to his home, and there is 158 to
8 the offices of Dandar & Dandar.
9 And if you add up the red ones, blue ones and
10 black ones, the total number of calls, by our
11 tabulation, is 634.
12 So what we've done, your Honor, is in
13 chronological order --
14 THE COURT: I think I can figure it out.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
16 THE COURT: I was looking at your legacy -- or
17 your legend. And I think it will be pretty obvious
18 for me to figure it out.
19 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
20 THE COURT: You can discuss it tomorrow.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I thought it would be fair if we
22 just gave it to him tonight.
23 THE COURT: Yes. I'll take it home and take a
24 look at it.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
244
1 THE COURT: If I don't understand it, why, I'll
2 let you know.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
4 THE COURT: And you can ask questions about it
5 tomorrow if you need to.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
7 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, if you have your
8 whatever it is you are preparing, if you want to
9 bring it in tomorrow --
10 THE WITNESS: I will --
11 THE COURT: -- that would be good. We can get
12 it all done at the same time.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Now, the numbers we operated off of, I want to
15 make sure these are correct --
16 THE COURT: I don't -- do we have to put his
17 cell numbers in the record? Or are they already in
18 the record?
19 THE WITNESS: I would hate for them to be in
20 the record.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Can I do this? Walk up, show
22 him these and ask him if they're correct.
23 THE COURT: Yes, you can. I don't know if they
24 are part of these documents. But the truth of the
25 matter is none of us likes our home number and stuff
245
1 like that readily available to the world.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Is that your cell number?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that your office number?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is that your home number?
8 A That is my unlisted home number at home, yes. A
9 total of three calls. The problem is all these calls, we
10 just don't know who is at both ends of the phone.
11 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said.
12 A With all these 600-plus calls, we don't know who
13 is on each end of the phone line, except I'm pretty sure
14 Jesse Prince's cell phone, he's on the end of the phone
15 line.
16 Q All right, we'll get back to that tomorrow. Okay?
17 A All right.
18 Q All right. Now, you testified earlier that you
19 had zero meetings, as you define meetings, with Mr. Minton
20 to discuss the case. Is that right?
21 A That is right.
22 Q But there were occasions when you met with or got
23 together with, in person, with Mr. Minton over -- between --
24 in 1997, '98, '99, 2000, 2001 and 2002, is that right?
25 A Just he and I?
246
1 Q You and Mr. Minton. Well, let's start with that,
2 just you and Mr. Minton.
3 A Well, there is one, in particular, and that is the
4 Bombay restaurant where I had lunch with him and then he
5 gave me the UBS check.
6 Other than that, I can't under oath tell you any
7 other time where I just met with Mr. Minton.
8 Q Now, what about Mr. Minton and other people?
9 A Well --
10 Q Did you have meetings -- well, I mean, you had
11 times when you met with Mr. Minton and other people,
12 including Ms. Brooks?
13 A You know, those times were really social
14 occasions: Dinner, lunch.
15 Q Well, did Mr. Minton ever go to your old address
16 on O'Brien?
17 A Sure.
18 Q Do you know how many times?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you remember the occasion?
21 A No. He would -- it was by the airport. He would
22 stop in leaving, or maybe he would stop in as he arrived.
23 Q Just to say hello?
24 A Just to say hello.
25 Q Not to talk about the case?
247
1 A No.
2 Q Never to talk about the case?
3 A No.
4 Q Did he go to your Kennedy address?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you know how many times?
7 A Not that many.
8 Q And I didn't ask you how many times at your
9 O'Brien address.
10 A I was there a while until '99, as I recall. He
11 went to the Kennedy address -- I was there two years -- just
12 a few times.
13 Q And the O'Brien address, more than a few?
14 A I wouldn't be able to tell you how many. I mean,
15 not a hundred. Maybe ten. I mean, I don't know.
16 Q What about the West Shore address? Did he ever go
17 to the West Shore address?
18 A No. We moved in there December of -- of 2001.
19 And I don't believe he was ever there.
20 Q How many times did you visit with Mr. Minton at
21 your house?
22 A Never.
23 Q At the LMT?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q Several dozen?
248
1 A Stop in, say hello, you know.
2 Q Well, it's not exactly around the corner from your
3 office, the LMT.
4 A Well, it is usually because I'm in Clearwater in
5 court. That is the usual time I would just stop in and see
6 what is going on.
7 I was concerned about these white lines drawn by
8 the City of Clearwater behind the bank building owned by the
9 Church of Scientology.
10 I was concerned about driving down Waters --
11 whatever that is called, Waterman Street, having police
12 officers look at you like you are a criminal and all you are
13 doing is driving down the street. Judge Penick, I think,
14 expressed the same concern. So I was concerned about all
15 that because this is kind of a strange circumstance.
16 I was concerned when they drew orange lines on the
17 sidewalk of downtown Clearwater, which would restrict First
18 Amendment rights.
19 Q Mr. Minton was in Clearwater at the LMT regularly
20 in 2000, correct? He was there a lot? He was down here a
21 lot in 2000?
22 A I have no idea.
23 Q Well, when he was down here -- and there were
24 times when he was down here for extended periods of time.
25 Correct?
249
1 A I have no idea. I can tell you that there were a
2 lot of times he was down here and I never saw him.
3 Q Did you meet with Mr. Minton ever at Stacy Brooks'
4 house?
5 A Once.
6 Q When was that?
7 A It was -- I don't remember when. That was the
8 episode when he was in -- having an emotional breakdown, as
9 I call it, crying profusely, in a fetal position at times.
10 It was terrible.
11 Q What was the occasion of you going to Stacy
12 Brooks' house to meet with Mr. Minton?
13 A Because of his emotional condition.
14 Q So you went there because he was having an
15 emotional breakdown?
16 A Yes. I was called by Stacy Brooks to hurry up
17 over, it was an emergency.
18 Q Was this during the day? At night?
19 A During the day.
20 Q And who else was there other than Mr. Minton and
21 Stacy Brooks?
22 A I believe I was there just with -- it was just the
23 three of us for a while. Then Jesse Prince and Jeff
24 Jacobsen showed up. And by that time, Mr. Minton had gained
25 his composure somewhat. And I kept insisting on calling
250
1 911, but I was voted down.
2 Q So I think your testimony was -- or you asked a
3 question of Mr. Minton, I can't remember exactly which it
4 was, or Ms. Brooks -- that on at least two occasions
5 Mr. Minton broke down emotionally in front of you. Right?
6 Did I hear you say that or ask a question like that?
7 A At least two times.
8 Q Right. One was this time. Correct?
9 A Right.
10 Q And do you remember -- you don't remember what
11 year this was?
12 A No.
13 Q And do you remember what occasioned the emotional
14 outburst?
15 A Pressure he was under. And his marriage.
16 Q Well, what do you mean, his marriage?
17 THE COURT: I don't want to go there. I don't
18 want to get into that. What does that have to do
19 with this?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll go on.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q And the other time was where?
23 A New Hampshire.
24 Q When you were up there in February?
25 A Correct.
251
1 Q So you had a close enough relationship with
2 Mr. Minton where -- where he felt comfortable around you
3 when he was having emotional issues or problems?
4 A No. Just quite the opposite of that. I didn't
5 get to Stacy Brooks' house on that date because Mr. Minton
6 called me. I got there because Stacy Brooks called me,
7 frantic, about what to do.
8 Q Now, what different cities did you have meetings
9 or did you meet with Mr. Minton in?
10 A Over the five years?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Boston for the deposition.
13 Boston maybe before that for that doctor's
14 deposition in the cancer case I had, the malpractice case.
15 Boston for Mr. Minton's deposition a month later.
16 Philadelphia in August of '99 because I was on
17 another doctor's deposition in another malpractice case.
18 I just want to say Tampa Bay. I don't think there
19 are any others.
20 Q You went to his house, as well?
21 A That was the only time, March of 2002. I always
22 kidded around that I was the only one that was never invited
23 to his house in New Hampshire.
24 Q So it was Boston a couple times, Philadelphia, and
25 New Hampshire, in addition to the couple of times in
252
1 Clearwater and Tampa?
2 A Right.
3 Q Did you visit with Mr. Minton in any hotels?
4 A Well, when he talked in this courtroom about the
5 Philadelphia August of '99 hotel room with the young girl
6 who had just left Scientology and Rod Keller, I believe he's
7 correct about that. We didn't talk about the case; we
8 talked about her.
9 And we also talked to the head of the Scientology
10 org. in Philadelphia after dinner, who apparently came back
11 to try to get this girl back. And it was -- actually, it
12 was not a -- a very pleasant conversation, a follow-up, on
13 the steps of the hotel.
14 But another hotel? I don't think so.
15 Q How about restaurants?
16 A Well, wait a minute. Hotels -- wait. The
17 Holiday -- whatever it is called -- on U.S. 19 for the
18 December 5th vigil, I'm sure I spoke there once or twice,
19 and I'm sure Mr. Minton was there.
20 Restaurants? Yeah, sure.
21 Q I mean, are we talking -- can you quantify the
22 number of times that you had -- you say they're not
23 meetings -- but that you ate dinner or lunch or spent time
24 over food with Mr. Minton over the years?
25 A And others? Because it was never one-on-one
253
1 except that Bombay Bicycle Club.
2 Belleview Biltmore, I would say maybe I recall
3 three times.
4 And Octavio's Restaurant next to the Lisa
5 McPherson Trust, I recall five times.
6 That one hotel and dinner up in Philadelphia that
7 one time.
8 And we may have had dinner in Boston when I was up
9 there for the deposition, but I can't really remember.
10 Q And Ruth's Chris, you went there?
11 A Ruth's Chris was a big dinner. My clients were
12 there. My wife was there. And I believe Stacy Brooks got
13 accosted there with a process server inside Ruth's Chris by
14 the Church of Scientology. I remember that one.
15 Q So you were there with Mr. Minton, among others?
16 A Right.
17 Q Then the Bombay Bicycle Club?
18 A Right. We talked about that.
19 Q Okay. Any celebrations that you spent with
20 Mr. Minton, celebrating your birthday, his birthday, Stacy
21 Brooks' birthday, Jesse Prince's, anything like that?
22 A Not that I recall.
23 Q Did you take any trips with Mr. Minton?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, how would you -- how do you characterize your
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1 relationship -- I'm talking about prior to this hearing --
2 with Bob Minton?
3 A Arm's length.
4 Q Excuse me?
5 A Arm's length.
6 Q What do you mean by that?
7 A Well, except the time I was called to Stacy
8 Brooks' house because of his emotional breakdown, by her,
9 not by him, and until I saw him in March of 2002 and he was
10 crying because he thought I wasn't his friend anymore, you
11 know, we would meet -- I would happenstance see him at the
12 Trust, and it was an arm's length -- it was never a
13 buddy-buddy situation, not because of me, but that is just
14 because of the way he was.
15 Q I thought that in the questions that you asked
16 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, that the implication was that you
17 had a close enough relationship with Mr. Minton where you
18 talked to him and gave him advice about his personal life.
19 Didn't I hear you say that?
20 A Mmm, I did that twice, as I recall. Once in
21 that -- that Philadelphia dinner. And once when Stacy
22 Brooks called me to her house that I already described. And
23 I don't think we had any other conversations because that
24 was a subject that he really didn't want to talk about,
25 although he's the one that brought it up in Philadelphia.
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1 Q So in all these phone calls and times you got
2 together, if you didn't talk about personal things and you
3 didn't talk about the case, what did you talk about?
4 A I remember sending him an E-Mail about his
5 personal relationships. I don't have it, but -- but what
6 did we talk about? I mean, I don't know. I mean, when the
7 trust was going on, we were talking about his picketing. We
8 were talking about the police. We were talking about things
9 like that. Then discovery was going on in 2000 and 2001.
10 We talked about that.
11 But he never approached me about the Lisa
12 McPherson case. And I never brought it up. As strange as
13 that may sound to all of you, he was hands off. His E-Mails
14 were correct when he said he has no input in the case.
15 Q Excuse me. You trailed off. He has no what?
16 A He has no input in the case.
17 Q Philadelphia. You did have a meeting -- or shall
18 I say you met with Mr. Minton in Philadelphia. Right?
19 A Yes. For dinner.
20 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks came
21 specially to Philadelphia to meet with you. Correct?
22 A No.
23 Q Well, did they have business in Philadelphia?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Well, what was their business in Philadelphia?
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1 A This girl that was coming out of Scientology, they
2 were very interested in her. It was the whole dinner, that
3 is what it was all about.
4 Q You knew, before they got there, that you were
5 going to be meeting with them in Philadelphia. Correct?
6 There had been some planning?
7 A I would assume so. I can't tell you for sure.
8 Q Now, I think I heard you say that Mr. Minton was
9 correct that you didn't just see him at the dinner, you
10 actually met him in his hotel room, as well, correct? Isn't
11 that what you said a few minutes ago?
12 A I met in a hotel room. I don't know if it was his
13 or someone else's. If he says it was his, I can't quibble
14 with that.
15 Q So there was a dinner where you were present,
16 Ms. Brooks was present, Mr. Minton was present. This was
17 all on August 26, 1999?
18 A Somewhere -- 25th, 26th, 24th.
19 Q And you were there on some other business?
20 A Right.
21 Q So at this dinner -- what, was it at the hotel, do
22 you know?
23 A It was at the hotel. I remember -- I'm
24 visualizing it right now.
25 Q Were you all staying in the same hotel,
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1 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and you?
2 A I would think so. Yes.
3 Q Do you remember the name of the hotel?
4 A No. Philadelphia -- might have been -- the Hyatt,
5 Center City.
6 Q Did you arrange for Mr. Minton's and Ms. Brooks'
7 reservations at the hotel?
8 A No.
9 Q Or your office, I mean?
10 A No.
11 Q So at this dinner there was you, Minton --
12 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, Rod Keller who was a critic of
13 Scientology. Correct?
14 A I suppose. I don't know what you call him.
15 Q Well, he was -- he was active in the
16 anti-Scientology movement. Correct?
17 A Well, you -- he was active as a critic. I think
18 what he actually -- he had some kind of computer job, and he
19 would put together this alt.religion.scientology news, the
20 most notable quotes or something, because there are hundreds
21 and hundreds of people post there every day. I tried to
22 access it a few times and I couldn't figure it out. But he
23 would put together -- a newsletter together, which I never
24 saw. And I think I asked him to send it to me, because I
25 was interested in seeing what these people were saying.
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1 But as far as him being a critic, I have never
2 seen anything posted by him, so I would assume that is true
3 but I can't verify.
4 Q Now, was Mr. Minton giving him money?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q And had you met him before this meeting; in other
7 words, had you -- had you been in touch with Rod Keller
8 prior to August 25/26, 1999?
9 A Only if he showed up down here for a picket or
10 something.
11 Q In other words, he wasn't a close confidante or
12 anything like that of yours?
13 A No, never.
14 Q He wasn't a trial consultant or anything?
15 A No, never.
16 Q The last person of the group was who?
17 A Well, the girl that -- I can't remember her name
18 right now. And there might have been somebody else.
19 I just know the dinner -- Bob Minton and I were
20 talking one-on-one. And everybody else was concentrating on
21 this girl.
22 Q Now, and you say at this dinner where all these
23 people that were not confidantes of you, Mr. Keller and this
24 girl's name, are, you say you talked to Mr. Minton with
25 Ms. Brooks present and these two people that you didn't even
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1 know, about his marital life?
2 A Yes. Mr. Minton and I were side by side. Stacy
3 Brooks was on the other side of me.