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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 3
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Kennan G. Dandar.
17
DATE: July 17, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
12 MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
18 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
19 Organization.
20
MR. ANTHONY BATTAGLIA
21 MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
22 980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
23 Counsel for Robert Minton.
24
25
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1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar, you may
2 return.
3 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I had to get Mr. Fugate. He
5 wanted to address a few things.
6 MR. FUGATE: The first thing you asked me to
7 address, would I contact the lawyers in the July 2nd
8 letter from Mr. Dandar to the Bar. And I have done
9 that. I have asked Mr. Rosen, I have asked
10 Ms. Yingling and, of course, everybody else is here.
11 And they do not object to -- they waive their
12 confidentiality. That is number one.
13 Number two, on the issue that came up
14 regarding -- two things that came up regarding the
15 comments -- or questions you posed to me about not
16 following or not -- trying to get around your order
17 or the Second District Court of Appeals' order.
18 Mr. Pope basically filed the proceeding that
19 you heard about from Mr. Dandar in front of Judge
20 Jenkins before you entered your order on May 27 and
21 filed it, basically to go over -- for the purpose of
22 recording and certifying the judgments. And I will
23 bring him in and address that today in rebuttal.
24 And, thirdly, the order -- the motion that you
25 were asking me about is the one that he filed. And
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1 he will address that and tell you that there was an
2 accounting ordered. He asked it be expedited, was
3 mindful of your order and the Second District -- the
4 2d DCA order and said basically I want this in
5 camera so it is done to preserve the record but I
6 don't want to interfere with your order or the
7 Second District order. I want to clear that up.
8 Lastly, Mr. Dandar asked not to have to answer
9 a question as to who he spoke to in law enforcement.
10 There is an issue I want to ask the Court to
11 reconsider on that. And it is this. When I came up
12 at the end of the day -- and I couldn't tell you now
13 which day it was -- I said, "I have got this
14 problem. I'm trying to get these two folks served."
15 And Mr. Dandar said, "Well, I spoke to Lee
16 Strope. I already talked to him," told you and I
17 that at the bench.
18 I think that must be who he's talking about. I
19 really don't care except that I want to make a
20 Freedom of Information Act request to see if there
21 are any reports for the purpose of the rebuttal.
22 I have done that with what Mr. Prince said and
23 I have rebuttal testimony to put on to your Honor --
24 or before your Honor that relates to what Mr. Prince
25 said happened with -- with Lee Strope. And I
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1 think -- I think if we ask Mr. Dandar who it was he
2 talked to, and if he says it's Lee Strope, that
3 would be encompassed in the letter that I have from
4 the custodian of records.
5 And our solution for Lee Strope, since he's on
6 vacation, or at least out of the office through the
7 22nd, rather than delay the proceedings before your
8 Honor, if we're about to conclude today or tomorrow,
9 what I would propose, unless there is an objection,
10 is that we take a deposition of Mr. Strope in that
11 area, and whatever he says under oath with
12 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot present we provide to the
13 Court as an exhibit, you know, after the hearing is
14 concluded or just have permission to include it.
15 That way, you've got it, they have the right to
16 be present, but we don't delay the hearing to wait
17 for him to come back, because I have no clue, if he
18 comes back on the 22nd, whether I could serve him or
19 not. And, you know, I certainly won't ask to have
20 the Court wait until the 22nd or 23rd or 24th to
21 bring him in.
22 So those are all my areas I wanted to cover.
23 THE COURT: Okay. As far as the privilege,
24 then everybody has waived it. Mr. Dandar waived it
25 before lunch, all of the lawyers waived it. So you
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1 may feel free, if it is relevant, to go ahead and go
2 into this letter.
3 As to the second matter as far as Mr. Strope's
4 deposition, as to whether or not he was contacted, I
5 have no problem with him being asked that. I have
6 no problem with him submitting an affidavit, as far
7 as that is concerned, if he was or was not
8 contacted.
9 Mr. Dandar, why is it you don't want to
10 disclose what law enforcement official you
11 contacted -- officer or whatever?
12 MR. DANDAR: At their request.
13 THE COURT: At their request?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, I should be
16 able to -- I mean, first of all, there is no
17 privilege there, I don't believe.
18 Secondly, it -- it is absolutely relevant to
19 what is going on in this proceeding if Mr. Dandar is
20 making accusations to law enforcement or seeking
21 investigations against my client or me to law
22 enforcement.
23 We should be able to, A, find out who the
24 agency is, B, what it was that he told him or gave
25 him or submitted to him. There is no privilege as
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1 to that. And he stands up here, having accused
2 David Miscavige of murder, having accused all of the
3 lawyers who are participating, in extortion and
4 blackmail, having accused the client of extortion
5 and blackmail, and he's reluctant to tell us what
6 law enforcement agency or agent he recently, while
7 this proceeding was going on -- these proceedings
8 were going on, made -- requested to do an
9 investigation, whatever? I don't know what he told
10 us.
11 THE COURT: What is the relevance to this
12 proceeding about that even? I mean, I presume the
13 only thing that makes it relevant is that you asked
14 him whether, if he had all this information
15 regarding so-called crimes, he reported it. He said
16 he did.
17 Now it seems like you want to follow it up
18 somehow or another --
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, was the purpose
20 to -- to put pressure on the Church to back off of
21 this proceeding?
22 THE COURT: Apparently not. I mean, the Church
23 didn't even know about it. So I'm not going to
24 require -- if he said law enforcement asked him not
25 to reveal that, to me, it is a very minimal
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1 significance. I mean --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I --
3 THE COURT: He said he contacted law
4 enforcement.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I inquire as to what
6 he told him?
7 THE COURT: Sure.
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
9 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I'll sit down, but --
10 THE COURT: This is really sort of irrelevant.
11 It's like you are trying to pursue something that
12 really -- you asked him almost like the answer
13 should have been, "No, I didn't."
14 Then it gets, like, "Oh, you thought you had
15 all this information regarding crimes and you didn't
16 even report it to the Bar? You didn't even report
17 it to law enforcement?"
18 Well, he did, he says.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I guess I would put it a
20 different way -- I would put it a different way. He
21 talks about pattern and practice. The pattern and
22 practice in this case, I think, from the beginning
23 of this case, is for Mr. Dandar to make false
24 allegations against my client, me and others. And
25 we talked about all of the incidents, whether it is
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1 the E-meter or the document that -- the statement
2 that supposedly ended up from his office in the
3 FDLE, and all these other allegations.
4 I mean, he talks about pattern and practice.
5 Well, here he's the one who has been making
6 allegations which -- which are false throughout this
7 proceeding, not to mention the main accusation,
8 false accusation, that David Miscavige was part --
9 made a decision to let Lisa McPherson die.
10 That is the relevance.
11 THE COURT: That is the relevance to this
12 hearing. As far as whether he reported what he
13 perceived to be a crime to a law enforcement agency
14 would be only relevant if he made that allegation
15 and did not. He said he did. Whether they are
16 doing anything about it, who would know?
17 MR. FUGATE: Could we just get it dated then,
18 Judge?
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to ask the questions.
20 MR. FUGATE: All right.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I'll --
22 THE COURT: Actually, you can ask him what he
23 said in some brief summary. But it just is not
24 relevant. You have got to conclude these
25 proceedings.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: And I don't have very much more
2 to ask him.
3 THE COURT: Then ask it.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to.
5 THE COURT: But it's going to be real quick
6 because I already told you it has minimal, if any,
7 relevance.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, you have in front of you the letter of
11 July 2, 2002 that you sent to the Florida Bar, is that
12 right?
13 A Exhibit 273?
14 Q Right.
15 THE COURT: Is that the number?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Your Honor, I offer that
18 into evidence. I have just a few questions about
19 it.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Now, if you go to Page 2 of this letter, on the
23 top paragraph you say, "These notes --" referring to some
24 lawyer notes, "and Ms. Yingling's testimony provide the
25 elements to support my position that Mr. Minton is now lying
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1 to the Court as part of his secret deal with Scientology to
2 make the death case go away. This is extortion."
3 That is what you said. Right?
4 A Yes. And "these notes" refers to Ms. Yingling's
5 typed notes that were introduced into evidence in this
6 hearing.
7 Q Then if you drop down a paragraph, you say, "The
8 Church of Scientology, in its fear of losing the McPherson
9 wrongful death case, has used the services of its lawyers,
10 both Monique Yingling in Washington --"
11 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Where are you reading?
12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. The next paragraph
13 on Page 2.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q "The Church of Scientology, in its fear of losing
17 the McPherson wrongful death case, has used the services of
18 its lawyers, both Monique Yingling in Washington, D.C. and
19 Samuel Rosen in New York City, and now Mr. Pope in
20 Clearwater, to promulgate the tactic of getting rid of the
21 attorney since it cannot get rid of the case.
22 "Of course, the attorneys representing the Church
23 of Scientology Flag Service Organization before Judge
24 Schaeffer are also guilty of this same illegal and unethical
25 behavior, not disclosing the Mary Carter agreement that the
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1 Church of Scientology has with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks to
2 the Court and now to the Florida Bar."
3 You made that allegation, correct?
4 A It's in black and white. Yes.
5 Q Then you go to Page 5, third paragraph --
6 THE COURT: What is the Mary Carter agreement?
7 THE WITNESS: It's an agreement where a party
8 makes a secret deal, usually with the plaintiff and
9 one defendant, and they make a secret deal outside
10 the knowledge of the Court. The party being sued
11 makes -- making the secret deal comes in, testifies,
12 and -- testifies favorably to the other party to the
13 Mary Carter agreement.
14 And Mary Carter agreement comes from the Mary
15 Carter Paint Company case.
16 THE COURT: Mary Carter is some term of --
17 THE WITNESS: Because of the case, 1993 Supreme
18 Court decision, that said it is illegal and
19 unethical for a lawyer to participate in such a
20 thing.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q This secret deal you are talking about is the deal
23 Mr. Minton says it isn't so and Ms. Brooks says it isn't so
24 and Ms. Yingling said it isn't so, correct, under oath, all
25 agree it is not true under oath?
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1 A I would not agree with that statement.
2 Q If you go to Page 5, the first sentence of the
3 third paragraph that begins, "I demand --" you said, "I
4 demand that the Bar take a broad approach and encompass all
5 of the attorneys involved in litigating against the estate
6 of Lisa McPherson." Correct?
7 A I mean, you just keep reading my letter? My
8 letter is correct. Everything I said in there.
9 Q The purpose of that statement and the one I read
10 before is to urge the Bar to investigate all of the lawyers
11 involved in this case, even though you didn't name us by
12 name. Correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Now, if you go to Page 5, the next-to-last
15 paragraph --
16 THE COURT: Counsel, honestly --
17 MR. WEINBERG: This is my last thing, your
18 Honor, on this letter.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q You say, "Mr. Pope individually and on behalf of
21 his client, Church of Scientology, has promulgated a charade
22 before the Florida Bar on his complaint against me, as well
23 as a charade before the courts in the three cases pending in
24 Pinellas County. This charade has caused --"
25 THE COURT: What Mr. Pope has done has zero
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1 relevance to this case.
2 MR. WEINBERG: No, but this Court -- this is --
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q You were talking about this case in front of Judge
5 Schaeffer being part of the charade?
6 A No. That is just the opposite. The wrongful
7 death case is the truth. What you are doing with Mr. Minton
8 is the charade. And "charade" is a word that the Florida
9 Supreme Court uses for Mary Carter agreements.
10 You are trying to not tell this -- you are trying
11 to not tell this Court and you didn't tell Judge Baird you
12 had this secret agreement with Mr. Minton, that he does
13 admit to, by the way, it comes out in Ms. Yingling's notes,
14 it's his deal to make this case go away to use any means
15 possible. You heard that from Nancy Many, to use any means
16 possible to get rid of this case.
17 The charade is not telling the Court about your
18 secret deal with Mr. Minton. That is the charade. And that
19 is the word the Florida Supreme Court used.
20 Q Well, you got a letter from -- from Mr. Jonas --
21 THE COURT: That is really all I want to hear
22 about this.
23 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
24 THE COURT: Because this is just irrelevant. I
25 do want to know, though, this Florida Bar
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1 2002-1139713B inquiry complaint of F.W. Pope. So I
2 presume you are responding to an allegation against
3 you.
4 THE WITNESS: Right. Mr. Pope is the one that
5 filed this.
6 THE COURT: Right. So this whole letter is in
7 response -- his defense to a complaint filed against
8 him, I gather.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Then this letter is used
10 purportedly to make a complaint against Mr. Pope and
11 others, some of which are named and some are not
12 named.
13 THE WITNESS: But I have been told by the
14 Florida Bar that is not proper procedure. I have to
15 fill out the form and fill out my own complaint. So
16 right now there is no complaint pending against
17 Mr. Pope or any of the other attorneys.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Now, when you speak of charade as far as the
20 Court, remember the other day Judge Schaeffer asked you
21 about the quotation in the -- in the -- you being quoted in
22 the recent article in the St. Pete Times where you were --
23 where you were quoted as saying, "They are committing a
24 charade on the Court. They have Minton coming in as if he
25 were this pitiful lying witness who wanted to come clean."
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1 Do you remember being asked those questions? And
2 the question the Court posed to you was --
3 THE COURT: This was some discussion, I think,
4 in court? Is that what you're talking about?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
6 THE COURT: What would that have to do with
7 anything?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, the question was whether
9 he talked to the press. And he said he had
10 testified about it.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q And my question was we've looked at the record and
13 we don't see any mention of charade in the record.
14 A What is the date of the article?
15 Q Just a few weeks ago.
16 MR. FUGATE: July 7.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q July 7?
19 A So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know.
20 Q Now, you remember --
21 THE COURT: The suggestion is that, Counsel,
22 obviously you did talk to the press because there is
23 nothing in the record that they could have gotten
24 that quote from.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, that is true. If there is
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1 nothing in the record where I'm using the word
2 "charade," then, you know, the reporter was sitting
3 back there a few days, so -- she talked to everyone.
4 You know, I stand corrected if I talked to her off
5 the record. I just don't recall doing that, using
6 that word with her.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q You think what is going on here is a charade?
9 A Absolutely. It's shameful.
10 Q Now, you remember the March 30 letter, 2002 letter
11 that you sent to Mr. Minton which is Exhibit -- your Exhibit
12 76?
13 THE COURT: Could you show it to him?
14 A The blood and death letter?
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Madam Clerk -- could I have the
18 clerk -- could I have Plaintiff's 76?
19 THE COURT: Unless he remembers it. But if he
20 does, I don't --
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Remember the blood on your --
23 A Yes, there is the blood and death letter, quoting
24 Mr. Minton.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Could somebody give me a copy?
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1 Obviously I have the wrong exhibit number. What is
2 the exhibit number? Maybe it is Defense 76. I
3 thought it was Plaintiff's 76.
4 A I think it is defense. I couldn't find it.
5 THE COURT: Whatever the number is, this is
6 already in evidence?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Mr. Minton talked about it
8 and Mr. Dandar talked about it.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Specifically --
11 THE COURT: There must be some rebuttal reason
12 to go back into it?
13 MR. WEINBERG: There is.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q Now, you wrote this letter on March 30 to
16 Mr. Minton, after you had talked to him on both the 28th and
17 29th of March, following his two days of meetings with the
18 Church lawyers. Correct?
19 A Well, specifically after March 29th.
20 Q Now, if you go to Page 2 of the letter, the one,
21 two, three, fourth paragraph, which is the first long
22 paragraph, the last three sentences, you say, "Dismissing
23 the case because Scientology is attempting to extort and
24 blackmail you is a request I cannot nor will ever honor.
25 From what I know so far, it is my opinion that Scientology
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1 and its counsel are blackmailing and extorting you. I am
2 outraged. But then I have no respect for anyone who works
3 for Scientology."
4 You said that, correct?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q So immediately --
7 A Actually, I wrote that.
8 Q Immediately you were making accusations of
9 extortion and blackmail. Right?
10 A Well, it is based upon my conversation the night
11 before with Mr. Jonas, Mr. Minton's lawyer, as well as
12 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks.
13 Q Now, then you were in court -- in this court on
14 April 5, 2002, a few days later, when Mr. Minton had his
15 contempt trial in front of Judge Schaeffer. Correct? You
16 were there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Now, and at that point you had already decided
19 that what was going on in New York was blackmail and
20 extortion. Correct?
21 A Yes. But it was unsuccessful as far as I knew
22 then.
23 Q But you didn't say anything to Judge Schaeffer --
24 I mean, you haven't been reluctant to accuse the Church and
25 its lawyers of misconduct in this case, have you?
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1 A Oh, I have been extremely reluctant to accuse the
2 lawyers of misconduct. But -- because the lawyers are
3 officers of the court. But I'm not reluctant to accuse the
4 Church, that has a criminal history of misconduct.
5 Q Now --
6 A And when it is used against me, my wife, my
7 daughter, my law firm, my secretaries, over and over and
8 over again, yeah, I'm not reluctant to go after the Church
9 for that.
10 Q Now, when you were in this court on April 5, a few
11 days after you wrote that March 30 letter to Mr. Minton, you
12 didn't tell Judge Schaeffer that there was extortion and
13 blackmail going on that was -- that was being perpetrated on
14 Mr. Minton by the Church of Scientology, did you, sir?
15 A No. That would have been reckless. I mean, I
16 just had one conversation with Mr. Minton and his lawyer in
17 a separate conversation. That would have been reckless for
18 me to come into open court and accuse the Church of
19 extortion and blackmail then. But now I know a lot more.
20 Q And, of course, you hadn't gone to law enforcement
21 at that point?
22 A No.
23 THE COURT: This is really so irrelevant.
24 THE WITNESS: But it shows you, Judge, that I
25 did go to law enforcement. So now I'm being accused
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1 of not going to law enforcement.
2 THE COURT: I know. If you say something, you
3 get one thing. If you don't say something, you get
4 something else.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Well, the point is you didn't think -- you said it
7 was unsuccessful. You didn't think that Bob Minton,
8 particularly after being acquitted by Judge Schaeffer on
9 the -- the April 3rd --
10 A 5th.
11 Q Acquitted by Judge Schaeffer on April 5, and the
12 April 3rd DCA -- 2d DCA opinion, you didn't think that Bob
13 Minton would ever come forward and produce that $500,000
14 check, did you, sir?
15 A That doesn't go together. That is -- I can't make
16 sense of that.
17 MR. LIROT: That is asking for speculation.
18 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Save it,
19 Counsel. Thank you.
20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. One last area. Do
21 you have -- do you have Mr. Minton's fifth --
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- affidavit up there,
24 Mr. Dandar?
25 THE COURT: I do. And it says Number 264.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
3 THE COURT: At least that is what I wrote.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q You don't have a copy up there?
6 THE COURT: Do you-all have a copy back there?
7 MR. LIROT: We do, Judge.
8 THE COURT: Do you have a copy for the witness?
9 They don't have to give up their copy. The witness
10 should have one.
11 MR. WEINBERG: You are right. We need to get a
12 copy of the affidavit. Here. I have got a copy.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Now, Mr. Dandar, Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks have
15 denied under oath that there was any extortion or blackmail
16 by the Church on them. Correct?
17 A I would expect them to deny it.
18 Q And Monique Yingling has denied there was any
19 extortion or blackmail, from the meetings that she
20 participated in, both in New York and in Florida. Correct?
21 A Of course. She participated in it. She would
22 deny it.
23 Q But what Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks did say under
24 oath, and in their affidavits which were also under oath,
25 that Mr. Minton had become increasingly concerned about what
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1 was going on in the court proceedings as it related to him
2 in the way of discovery orders and contempt. He said that,
3 didn't he?
4 A Sure. Because you were getting closer and closer
5 to his secrets in Switzerland.
6 Q And that he was concerned about going to jail.
7 Right?
8 A That's right. Because he didn't report his
9 income.
10 Q And he dated that concern way back to August, the
11 summer of 2001, didn't he?
12 A When you discovered Stacy Brooks opened her mouth
13 about the wire transfer. That was the big -- that was
14 the -- probably the biggest -- the first of the big turning
15 points.
16 THE COURT: What date was that?
17 THE WITNESS: August.
18 MR. WEINBERG: August of 2001.
19 THE WITNESS: Then he cut me off.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q That was my next question. Then at that point you
22 got the E-Mail -- you got the communication from Mr. Minton
23 through both Mr. Merrett and Mr. Minton that they weren't --
24 he wasn't going to provide you any more funds?
25 A No. Just through Mr. Merrett. Mr. Minton
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1 wouldn't even talk to me.
2 Q Okay. Now, and this was long before any
3 suggestion that the Church of Scientology was extorting or
4 blackmailing Mr. Minton with a $500,000 check. Correct?
5 A Right. They were only blackmailing him with this
6 Nigerian government accusations.
7 Q And you're not suggesting that the Church was
8 blackmailing him with the orders that the Church had
9 received from Judge Moody, Judge Schaeffer, Judge Beach,
10 Judge Quesada, are you?
11 A No, I'm not that naive. But they were
12 blackmailing him with his business associates, his Lexus
13 dealership in New England, the business associate who lost
14 millions of dollars and won't talk to him anymore. And the
15 things that they were doing in following his daughters
16 wherever they went, and his family on vacations, like they
17 followed me to the Cayman Islands in January of this year.
18 Q Now, if you go to Mr. Minton's affidavit, I'm
19 going to go through a couple of these E-Mails -- a few of
20 these E-Mails.
21 And on Page 3, Subparagraph E, Mr. Minton says, "A
22 copy of an E-Mail -- that this is a copy of an E-Mail, along
23 with the routing header, an PGP," that is an acronym for
24 Pretty Good Privacy, "encrypted version of the message which
25 was received from John Merrett on August 23, 2001."
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1 THE COURT: Where are you, Counsel?
2 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, the affidavit. I was
3 reading from Page 3 of the affidavit where he
4 explains what the E-Mail is. Then I was going to
5 turn to the --
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q I'll start that again. Do you see Page 3E?
9 A Yes, I read it. D like in dog?
10 Q E as in Edward.
11 A I'm sorry.
12 Q "A copy of an E-Mail, along with the routing
13 header and PGP," I'll leave out what he says about PGP,
14 "encrypted version of the message which was received from
15 John Merrett on August 23rd, 2001. I stored this on the
16 hard drive of my computer when I received it and it is
17 printed as it appeared when it was originally received and
18 stored."
19 Then he refers to Exhibit E.
20 If you'll turn to Exhibit E, particularly turn to
21 the second Page of Exhibit E, you'll see that it indicates
22 an E-Mail from John Merrett and has his E-Mail address, to
23 Stacy Brooks, copied to Bob Minton, at their E-Mail
24 addresses, dated August 23, 2001.
25 Do you see that?
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1 A I see the second encrypted page, yes.
2 Q Right. With what I just read?
3 A With what you just read on the date. Yes.
4 Q And now on the front page, first page, is the
5 decrypted -- is that the right word, decrypted message of
6 August 23rd and what -- and do you see that what Mr. Merrett
7 says to Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton is, "The biggest danger in
8 adding fuel to the 'Bob controls the litigation' claim which
9 could expose Bob to financial risk either on the case itself
10 (if not dismissed and goes badly) or on the abuse of process
11 counterclaim (which could not be resolved by dismissal of
12 the death case.)"
13 THE COURT: You read a couple words wrong
14 there, Counsel.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Did I?
16 THE COURT: "The biggest danger in," you said
17 "it is." Then you said "could." It should be
18 "would." It just says what it says. I know it is
19 not intentional.
20 MR. WEINBERG: My eyes are not working very
21 well.
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q "Two, the second concern is the continued vitality
25 of the Baird case, breach of contract --"
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1 A Well, I have a problem with this, before you read
2 it, because, number one, I don't agree with you that the
3 first page of E is a copy of the second encrypted page.
4 When you -- as far as I know, when you decrypt you
5 get the header back on the page. There is no header on
6 this. Anybody in the world could have typed up the first
7 page of E. So I'm not convinced that is what it is because,
8 number one, I'm not involved in this communication and --
9 Q But Mr. Minton swears it is --
10 A Mr. Minton swears to a lot of things that aren't
11 true.
12 THE COURT: I don't think -- I don't know why
13 you are referring this -- this lawyer to some
14 message that may or may not be the encrypted message
15 that came from somebody else, not him?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we can -- we'll review it
17 in our rebuttal case. I wanted to show him what was
18 going on in these E-Mails with regard to Mr. Minton
19 back in August of 2001. But we can do that in our
20 rebuttal case and go over it with your Honor, back
21 in August of 2001, which were consistent with what
22 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks have testified about.
23 THE COURT: There is a lot consistent with what
24 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton testified about. There is
25 a lot consistent with what Mr. Dandar testified
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1 about. If you want to make a closing argument --
2 MR. WEINBERG: I'm really not.
3 THE COURT: -- don't use something Mr. Merrett
4 wrote to Mr. Minton, maybe, to ask this witness
5 about.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, he might have seen it.
7 THE COURT: Then ask him that. Then if he says
8 yes, then we might could move on. If he says no,
9 that should be the end of the inquiry.
10 Did you ever see this?
11 THE WITNESS: Never.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q All right, turn to the affidavit again, and on
14 Page 2 at the top. And what Mr. Minton says is, "A draft
15 version of the fifth amended complaint in the wrongful death
16 case dated August 30, 1999 sent to me by E-Mail at the time
17 by Ken Dandar. This document is an ASCII --"
18 Is that how to pronounce that, by the way?
19 A Yes.
20 Q "-- ASCII text version of a document that was
21 originally word-processed. Mr. Dandar sent the
22 word-processed version of this draft to me as an E-Mail
23 attachment. I could not open the original word processed
24 version --"
25 THE COURT: Come on. Are you going to read
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1 this? Let him read this, then see whatever
2 question --
3 MR. WEINBERG: I did when he was on the stand,
4 I showed him this document. And Mr. Dandar --
5 remember, he said he went back to his firm and he
6 couldn't find this version --
7 THE COURT: He said maybe he sent it to him and
8 maybe he didn't was my recollection.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I thought his testimony is
10 he didn't send any pleadings in advance to
11 Mr. Minton.
12 THE COURT: I don't believe that was his
13 testimony. I think his testimony was he may have
14 sent some.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me -- well, this is a
16 very important one since it is the fifth amended
17 complaint and sent before it was ever filed.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, tell me, do you
19 have the fifth amended -- the real fifth amended
20 complaint?
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q I think that the first fifth amended complaint
23 you'll find under Tab B, that that is essentially --
24 A I'm not sure because, again, it has that date at
25 the top.
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1 Q I understand. But I'm representing to you I
2 prepared it, that is the same.
3 A Well, you know, if you compare these two
4 documents, number one, I don't have -- I don't have the
5 capability, as far as I know, to send anything ASCII. I
6 don't even know how you do that. I get things that are
7 ASCII but I have to convert them into Word Perfect.
8 This first document I don't recognize at all
9 coming from me whatsoever. There is a lot of things on
10 there that make no sense to me at all. So I can't say under
11 oath I sent this to anybody.
12 Q Well, will you deny under oath that you sent an
13 advance draft of an earlier version of the fifth amended
14 complaint to Mr. Minton?
15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I object. That assumes
16 facts not in evidence. I don't think that was
17 Mr. Dandar's testimony. My recollection is he
18 didn't know.
19 THE COURT: That is exactly what my
20 recollection is.
21 MR. WEINBERG: But I'm asking him now a
22 specific question.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Did you --
25 THE COURT: You are asking him, "Will you deny
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1 under oath." Why would he deny it? He already said
2 he doesn't know if he did or not.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell you that this
4 document, the first one, has a fraud claim, Count 9,
5 and it has a breach of contract claim, Count 10.
6 And I hate -- I know you're going to get all
7 excited when I say this, but this looks like -- if
8 this document came from me, it looks like someone
9 got access to my computer somehow and copied it
10 without my authority, if this is on my computer at
11 all.
12 The second document, again --
13 THE COURT: Was that complaint ever filed?
14 THE WITNESS: I can't say. I don't know. Of
15 course, I filed a fifth amended complaint and I
16 filed several versions of the fifth amended
17 complaint.
18 THE COURT: This is not the version of the
19 complaint that we're riding under here?
20 MR. WEINBERG: No, this is dated August 30,
21 which is right after the Philadelphia meeting, right
22 after the Prince affidavit, right before the final
23 first version is filed on September 7.
24 And Mr. Dandar made a big point about how
25 Mr. Minton had no interest in the litigation. And
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1 what Mr. Minton's affidavit says is that, "I
2 received from Mr. Dandar on September 1 this
3 August 30 version of what was being considered as
4 the first -- as the fifth amended complaint that was
5 going to be filed."
6 THE WITNESS: So why don't you produce the
7 E-Mail if I sent it to him by E-Mail? That is how
8 easy this is.
9 MR. WEINBERG: He explains that in his
10 affidavit.
11 MR. LIROT: With no backup.
12 THE COURT: So the deal is move on to the next
13 question. He can't say whether he sent this or not,
14 apparently.
15 THE WITNESS: I doubt it, because this doesn't
16 look like mine because of these extra two counts at
17 the end that make no sense. You know, I just --
18 this doesn't look like anything I did.
19 THE COURT: Am I wrong about your testimony?
20 Was your testimony, Mr. Dandar, the first, second or
21 third time you were on the stand, that you may have
22 sent him some documents in advance, you're not sure?
23 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. But if I did, I'm
24 certainly not sending them to him to get his
25 approval for anything. You know, I don't know.
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1 But -- this has been going on three months, I'm kind
2 of weary.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 Redirect?
6 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
7 THE COURT: Can you tell me -- since you
8 compared this, can you tell me about --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Which one are we talking about
10 now?
11 THE COURT: -- Number A attached to
12 Mr. Minton's first affidavit.
13 MR. WEINBERG: That is different.
14 THE COURT: Was this ever filed?
15 MR. WEINBERG: No. What was filed was on
16 September 7, as part of the motion to -- what do you
17 call it -- to --
18 THE COURT: Amend?
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- to amend, right, a copy of
20 what is Exhibit B.
21 THE COURT: So this document, Number A, has
22 never been filed in any court?
23 MR. WEINBERG: No, it is a draft, apparently.
24 And Mr. Minton says, "I received it from Mr. Dandar
25 on September 1, it is an August 30 draft," which we
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1 believe would certainly be relevant as to the
2 involvement of Mr. Minton in the case.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Make your point in closing
4 argument.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
6 THE COURT: Redirect or whatever it is.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Just to answer your question,
8 your Honor, this is what they handed to me when this
9 motion was filed -- if I can approach you -- on
10 September 7 --
11 THE COURT: My question was whether this was
12 ever filed.
13 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm saying, I'm
14 showing you what was filed. When the motion was
15 filed to amend on September 7, attached as an
16 exhibit was this, seeking approval to file it, which
17 was the fifth amended complaint, which is in a
18 different form than A.
19 THE COURT: Not the same complaint?
20 MR. WEINBERG: It's a slightly -- I mean, it's
21 a somewhat different version.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, that would be a
24 draft. A would be a draft.
25 THE WITNESS: Judge, Exhibit B that they
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1 attached, which is actually something you can read
2 but I still don't recognize the date in the top
3 left-hand corner, but Mr. Minton -- even Mr. Minton
4 in this affidavit states he got a copy of this
5 complaint in November of '99, well after the --
6 months after it was filed, when the amended
7 complaint was filed.
8 THE COURT: You can save that for your closing
9 argument.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Just wanted to point it
11 out.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q Mr. Dandar, Mr. Weinberg was asking you about some
16 of the affidavits filed by Mr. Prince. And I believe there
17 was some concern over the affidavit filed in, I think it
18 was, the Wollersheim case.
19 Did you have an opportunity to review those
20 affidavits?
21 A I can't sit here and tell you I did. You mean
22 before I filed Mr. Prince's affidavit to add on parties? Or
23 when I first met Mr. Prince?
24 Q Well, did you have an opportunity to review these
25 and verify whether they were consistent with any of the
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1 other information that Mr. Prince was providing you?
2 A Well, they're all consistent.
3 THE COURT: Was this before he filed the
4 complaint in question, that being the fifth amended
5 complaint?
6 MR. LIROT: That is correct, your Honor. I
7 should qualify.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, at that point in
9 time -- and he just verified it again -- Mr. Prince
10 always testified in these declarations consistent
11 with the affidavit that he prepared for this case.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q And when Mr. Prince was actually providing
14 services to you as a consultant or an expert witness, was
15 there a condition that he not participate in any other
16 litigation?
17 A No. No. Independent contractor.
18 Q Was there any condition that he not provide
19 services to the LMT at any point that he assisted you?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you ever require him to waive any First
22 Amendment rights he may have to criticize any issue?
23 A No.
24 Q Now, was there anything of concern to you
25 receiving any information from Teresa Summers or other
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1 people that might have expressed interest in the Lisa
2 McPherson wrongful death case?
3 A No. I was hoping people would send me
4 information. And people have sent me information from all
5 over -- all over the globe. Honestly.
6 Q Was the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust to
7 provide some sort of umbrella source of information just to
8 you for the wrongful death case?
9 A No. Not at all.
10 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg -- this was Exhibit Number
11 267 -- I'll go ahead and pass that up, Judge.
12 This was the information that was faxed to the
13 State Attorney's Office. Do you recognize that?
14 A Well, this looks like my paralegal's handwriting
15 on the fax cover sheet. And, of course, the affidavit has
16 my fax information at the top. So this would have come from
17 my office on September 1.
18 Q Were the lines of communication open between you
19 and the State Attorney's Office relative to common issues
20 regarding Lisa McPherson?
21 A Yes. I mean, I would tell them what I knew. Of
22 course, they wouldn't tell me what they knew. But I
23 would -- they encouraged me to send any information.
24 Dr. Wood encouraged me, you know, if I had any information,
25 to go ahead and send it over. And I did.
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1 Q Was the purpose in providing the State Attorney's
2 Office information about the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
3 case or any other issue regarding Lisa McPherson with an
4 intent to put pressure on the Church?
5 A No. It was to make sure that -- that the State
6 Attorney's Office, and, in particular, Doug Crow who I
7 respect and admire, had all of the information he could
8 possibly have in doing his job.
9 THE COURT: Well, we must not be -- we must not
10 be foolish here. Obviously, had the State
11 prosecuted the Church or Mr. Miscavige or any person
12 for manslaughter, and been successful, presumably
13 that would have made the wrongful death case a
14 little easier.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think it's
16 admissible, though, Judge. I mean, what they do on
17 the criminal side I can't use on the civil -- like
18 even if they went and pled no contest --
19 THE COURT: Are we crazy here or what? If they
20 bring a manslaughter charge and they are successful
21 and they persuade a jury beyond a reasonable doubt
22 that David Miscavige, the Church of Scientology,
23 David (sic) Kartuzinski, anybody else, was guilty
24 beyond a reasonable doubt of manslaughter, does that
25 not make the same allegation that has a lesser
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1 burden of proof a little easier to settle, take to
2 trial or anything else?
3 THE WITNESS: The way you phrased that? Yes.
4 Yes.
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q Was any of the information you provided to the
7 State Attorney false, to your knowledge?
8 A Oh, no. Not at all.
9 Q Was there any bad-faith motive that you had in
10 providing them information that you acquired in your
11 research?
12 A No. I believe as an officer of the court I
13 actually had a duty to do something like that if I had
14 information that they could use. I wish I had the
15 information they had, but I didn't get that until after the
16 charges were dismissed.
17 Q Mr. Dandar, let me ask you something about the
18 checks, the two --
19 THE COURT: By the way, I don't suggest there
20 is any wrong with that. I'm simply saying that is a
21 fact. I mean, civil lawyers -- if there is a
22 criminal case pending and there is a criminal
23 conviction of same -- you should feel a little
24 better about your case. You have a lesser burden.
25 MR. LIROT: I think that is an accurate
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1 assumption, your Honor.
2 THE WITNESS: Except in this case I have to
3 wait because they were pleading the Fifth Amendment,
4 I couldn't take their depositions so it just delayed
5 and delayed and delayed everything.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q Now, the first check that you received, the
8 $500,000 check you received in, I think it was, May of 2000,
9 now, did you make a special request that that come from a
10 confidential source?
11 A No. I didn't make any request at all.
12 Q All right. In the context of your negotiations
13 with Mr. Minton and knowing what you knew or certainly
14 presumed to have been informed of about the Church's
15 practices, what might seem strange in some instances, did it
16 seem strange to you that you were getting an anonymous check
17 for half a million dollars?
18 A No.
19 THE COURT: Frankly, I think he covered that.
20 A These people wanted to remain anonymous. They
21 were his friends in Europe. I got the check. By that time
22 in May of 2000, I have already been through the ringer of
23 Scientology contacting my clients, accusing me of crimes,
24 immoral conduct. My wife had been approached several times
25 at our home. My wife and daughter, shopping, their
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1 photographs had been taken. People stop in front of them at
2 stop signs and don't move their car like they're supposed
3 to. By May of 2000, we had been through quite a bit. And I
4 could understand why anybody wanted to remain anonymous.
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you a document that
7 we have not marked yet, I'll go ahead and get an exhibit
8 number from the clerk, if I may.
9 THE CLERK: 192.
10 MR. LIROT: 192. Here is a copy for you,
11 Judge.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what has been
14 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 192 and ask you if you can
15 identify that for the Court.
16 A This was an affidavit of my client, Linda
17 Herrington, dated April 28, 1998.
18 This is a prime example of what I have been
19 talking about. She was one of the first clients I knew had
20 been contacted by a private investigator, which caused me to
21 ask Judge Moody to stop it because of what she says in this
22 affidavit, of the private investigator who I found out to be
23 Brian Raftery, who is the same investigator for the Church
24 that went after Mr. Prince a couple years later, accusing me
25 of immoral conduct with her thirteen-year-old daughter who
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1 at the time of this interview that she relays in this
2 affidavit was 22 years old.
3 And, of course, it is all false. But accuses me
4 of crimes and accuses me of all kinds of things that they
5 are going to try to get me convicted of. It is all false.
6 But this is the client that was going to testify
7 before the Florida Bar, and two weeks before that was killed
8 in a head-on collision with a truck in Plant City where she
9 lived. And I couldn't use her testimony.
10 MR. FUGATE: Judge --
11 A It was Mr. Raftery who alerted the Florida Bar of
12 Ms. Herrington's death.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I object to that because
14 that is not accurate. This is the -- the
15 allegations that were made against me and
16 Ms. Vaughan that resulted in a Bar complaint by
17 Mr. Dandar, resulted in us having to respond,
18 resulted in a hearing, a hearing which took place,
19 and ended in a finding of no probable cause where he
20 had an opportunity to present this information and
21 any other information that he had. And it was done
22 and there was nothing that came out of it.
23 And this is another attempt, in my judgment, to
24 try to -- to besmirch the lawyers without any --
25 sufficient evidence. And I object to it.
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1 THE WITNESS: Could I respond to that, Judge?
2 THE COURT: No.
3 MR. LIROT: Judge, I want to ask him some
4 questions about this.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q I'll flat out ask you, was this an attempt --
8 THE COURT: Excuse me, if that was an
9 objection, it is overruled.
10 BY MR. LIROT:
11 Q Was this an attempt to besmirch anyone?
12 A No. This is an attempt to play fair. I was
13 trying to get Mr. Fugate -- and I don't know if Mr. Weinberg
14 was involved in this but I didn't accuse him of anything --
15 at the time it was just Mr. Fugate and his associate, Laura
16 Vaughan, before Judge Moody.
17 I brought it to Judge Moody's attention.
18 Mr. Fugate and Ms. Vaughan denied any knowledge of this
19 private investigator. In fact, they said I was making it
20 up.
21 Then I brought it to the judge's attention again
22 because other people were getting contacted. And Mr. Fugate
23 and Ms. Vaughan again denied it to the judge.
24 THE COURT: Who is Ms. Vaughan? Excuse me.
25 MR. WEINBERG: She used to be an associate at
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1 our firm back then.
2 THE COURT: Was she working on this case?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, she was.
4 THE WITNESS: So then I -- Ms. Linda Herrington
5 was meeting with this Brian Raftery four or five
6 times. Finally, she got a phone number for him.
7 I called and got his real name, because he was
8 using an assumed name with her. I subpoenaed him
9 for a hearing. And Mr. Fugate and Ms. Vaughan filed
10 a motion to quash the subpoena. And we had a
11 hearing.
12 And I recall Judge Moody looking at both of
13 them, saying, "I thought you told me on two or more
14 occasions before this hearing that Mr. Dandar was
15 making all this up and you had no knowledge about
16 this?"
17 And Mr. Fugate or Ms. Vaughan, I don't remember
18 which one, said, "No, Judge, our client had us hire
19 this private investigator, and we're allowed to
20 investigate Mr. Dandar, so it is all work product,
21 and we should not have to have a hearing on this."
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q The woman approached by the private investigator,
24 what did she have to do with the Lisa McPherson wrongful
25 death case?
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1 A She had nothing to do with it. She was a poor
2 woman, someone who I helped out for free, and her like --
3 had like four or five kids living in a trailer park and
4 needed to vacate, they had no money. And it was my pro bono
5 service to help her out.
6 I got her -- I paid for the truck to come move her
7 trailer to Plant City on a nice half-acre lot, and she was
8 out in Gibsonton and she was happy. And, you know, I did my
9 service to the community with that case.
10 And I also represented -- I forgot -- how could I
11 forget this -- I also represented her for the death of her
12 son, unrelated.
13 But she had nothing to do with the Church of
14 Scientology, nor all my other clients that they went and
15 even coached and persuaded somehow to file Bar complaints
16 against me.
17 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I do object to this
18 because this was the subject of a Bar complaint and
19 hearing where he had an opportunity to bring people
20 in and to support the allegations that he makes out
21 of thin air. And it didn't happen. It didn't
22 happen. And he knows it didn't happen. And what he
23 just described to you didn't happen. And I'm sick
24 of it.
25 THE COURT: He says it did. And this is a
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1 different hearing. And I, frankly, think he's on
2 the stand and he's been accused of some pretty --
3 MR. FUGATE: I apologize.
4 THE COURT: -- bad things. And your objection
5 once again is overruled.
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
7 192 into evidence.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. This is just
9 hearsay. And the woman is dead.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 BY MR. LIROT:
12 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm --
13 THE COURT: It goes, if nothing else, to his
14 belief about people not wanting to identify
15 themselves for contributions. So it has some
16 relevance even if it is not true. I'm not saying it
17 is true or not. If she's dead, obviously we
18 can't -- you can't -- nobody can --
19 MR. WEINBERG: I can't --
20 THE COURT: -- get any information about that.
21 However, I'm allowing it in.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that.
23 THE COURT: Just like I have allowed in a whole
24 slew of other affidavits from folks who have never
25 been here. And I have no idea if their affidavits
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1 are true or false, like Mr. Miscavige, like just a
2 slew of people, you know, lawyers, and
3 Mr. Wollersheim, and --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Joe Yanny and all that stuff.
5 THE COURT: Yanny. And, I mean, just a whole
6 slew of affidavits in this proceeding.
7 But as far as Mr. Dandar, some of the
8 statements he has made, what it is he thought --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
10 THE COURT: -- as far as the Church of
11 Scientology and their efforts to bother him or what
12 have you is quite relevant. So --
13 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, just so the record --
14 the objection is clear, it's not just an objection
15 because the allegation which is false was made
16 against Mr. Fugate or Ms. Vaughan. But it is also a
17 false allegation against our client.
18 And -- and so our objection is not just to
19 Mr. Dandar rattling off about things that have
20 already gone in front of a Bar committee, but it is
21 also rattling off about things just absolutely not
22 true about the client and talking about hearsay --
23 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is what
24 might be relevant in a Bar complaint as far as what
25 Mr. Fugate had to do with this, if anything, is
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1 absolutely of no never mind to me. I have no way of
2 knowing if this has to do with Mr. Fugate or not.
3 I have just ruled this has some relevance and
4 it is, therefore, admissible in this hearing.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted --
6 THE COURT: You can talk about it all you want,
7 but it is really a very simple thing. You-all need
8 to get used to it.
9 If we ever get to trial and I rule something is
10 admissible or inadmissible, if you think you'll
11 stand up and make a huge record of it, I don't care
12 what you think about this.
13 MR. WEINBERG: No. I knew you had already
14 ruled.
15 THE COURT: Then sit down. Let's move.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
17 THE COURT: I mean, I don't expect them to get
18 up every time I let something in they think is
19 harmful to their case, they think is not true, to
20 get up and -- to stand up and say so.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
22 THE COURT: But you keep doing it.
23 BY MR. LIROT:
24 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what we marked
25 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 193.
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1 MR. LIROT: I have a courtesy copy for you,
2 your Honor. A copy for the clerk.
3 BY MR. LIROT:
4 Q Can you identify that document for the Court?
5 A This is --
6 THE COURT: Now I can hear you up here.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
8 A This is a more recent affidavit of a client of
9 mine, a current client of mine. And she was, back in the
10 time she wrote this affidavit, May 26, 1999, Ann Koutelas,
11 K-O-U-T-E-L-A-S. Ann Koutelas.
12 She was approached several times by a private
13 investigator and finally agreed to talk with him. He
14 actually showed her a badge, as she states in Paragraph
15 Number 3, and said they were investigating an attorney. And
16 he mentioned my name as being the one he was investigating
17 and coached her -- this is the only -- well, this is the one
18 I know for sure, coached by the investigator to file a Bar
19 complaint against me concerning a case where I represented
20 her in a fall on an elevator years ago. And she actually
21 filed a Bar complaint.
22 I only found out about it when I got a letter from
23 the Bar -- a copy of a letter to her -- saying that, you
24 know, there is nothing to talk about, the Bar wasn't going
25 to look at this at all.
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1 But here they are alleging that I'm transporting
2 illegal weapons --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection.
4 A -- and fraudulent insurance claims.
5 MR. WEINBERG: They are alleging? The
6 suggestion that -- he's reading from an affidavit
7 dated back in '99. We don't know who this woman is.
8 She apparently filed a Bar complaint against him.
9 And now it is being used against us in this
10 proceeding?
11 THE COURT: It is not being used against you,
12 Counsel. Maybe you didn't hear me. Maybe you would
13 like me to tell you again.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
15 THE COURT: I think the problem, you just don't
16 listen.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I try to.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar has made some statements
19 in this case. And part of his statements is why it
20 was that he believed it when Mr. Minton said that
21 some -- some anonymous folks from Europe were going
22 to donate $500,000.
23 I have kind of looked at him and said that I
24 find almost unbelievable.
25 He has said, "Yes, but the reason is that
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1 because this is a unique case. And I knew what
2 happened and I knew it was happening to me. And I
3 knew this, that and the other thing."
4 And so now I presume this is part of what it is
5 he's trying to establish he knew why that statement
6 that seemed so farfetched to me is not farfetched as
7 to what he was thinking. I don't know what was
8 going on in his head. These are things he is saying
9 he knew, which is the only thing that makes this
10 relevant, as to why he thought some folks would give
11 half a million dollars to him and would not want to
12 be known or named or have the Church of Scientology
13 in any way, shape or form know who they were, why
14 this testimony made sense to him.
15 Now, is that the relevance?
16 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
17 MR. LIROT: Absolutely, Judge.
18 THE COURT: So if you don't understand that, I
19 can't help you.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand what you just said.
21 THE COURT: I do understand that. And that is
22 why I overruled your objection.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I understand what you just said.
24 THE COURT: I'll overrule the next one if you
25 have it. So the affidavits come in because this is
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1 part of his case to establish why that isn't so
2 farfetched as far as he's concerned.
3 MR. WEINBERG: They come in for his state of
4 mind but not for the truth?
5 THE COURT: That is exactly right. Well, they
6 come in for what Mr. Dandar believes is the truth.
7 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I said.
8 THE COURT: Obviously, he thinks they are
9 absolutely true. You people think they are
10 absolutely false. There is nothing different about
11 this than there is anything else that has gone on in
12 this case.
13 MR. WEINBERG: All right, until a minute ago I
14 had not seen them, so ...
15 THE WITNESS: This person, Ann Koutelas, I
16 continue to represent her.
17 THE COURT: But you know the truth of the
18 matter is I really don't need you to read off this.
19 I can read off it, too. If that is the relevance,
20 then, you see, I figured it out before I even read
21 it, I just read a part of it.
22 You need to introduce it.
23 MR. LIROT: I would like to introduce it.
24 THE COURT: Then what you need to do is go to
25 your closing argument to go to explain it.
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1 MR. LIROT: Very good.
2 THE COURT: This record is way too long and,
3 frankly, I can tell that I have just about had it.
4 And I can feel it coming. You know, I can always
5 tell when I have had just about as much as I can
6 handle for the day, and then I go off and do
7 something I wish hadn't done.
8 So just introduce it and then move on to your
9 next --
10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I move Exhibit 193 into
11 evidence.
12 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to receive
13 it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: And we have the same objection.
15 THE COURT: You have the same objection.
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q Now, Mr. Dandar, were there other instances that
19 didn't result in affidavits where you felt the Church was
20 putting you under scrutiny that had nothing to do with the
21 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
22 A Well, Mr. Moxon, in a deposition of Jesse Prince's
23 fiancee, Dee Phillips, in a criminal case, I believe, of
24 Mr. Prince, Mr. Moxon questioned his fiancee, Dee
25 Phillips --
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1 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Now I'm so
2 confused. How could Mr. Moxon be questioning
3 anybody in a criminal case? He wouldn't have any
4 standing to take a deposition.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, it must be the civil case.
6 THE COURT: Civil case.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. You are right. I'm kind
8 of tired. You are right. It is not a good thing to
9 be a witness all day.
10 A But, anyway, Mr. Moxon -- the question that came
11 out of his mouth was, "And isn't it true that you are --
12 that Mr. Prince and Ken Dandar are engaged in drug dealing,
13 illegal arms dealing, some other crimes?"
14 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon asked this Mr. Prince's
15 fiancee whether Mr. Prince was involved in these
16 illegal activities, and you?
17 THE WITNESS: And me. Right. Right. That is
18 one.
19 A Another one is just this January I flew with my
20 family to the Cayman Islands. Sitting in the lounge waiting
21 for our room, someone runs up, snaps our picture and runs
22 away. Could that be just a tourist wanting to take my
23 picture? I don't think so.
24 My wife and daughter, I already said this, going
25 to the shopping center, to the mall, supermarket, they had
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1 been followed over the years. Their picture has been taken
2 while they are sitting at a light. Some guy pulls up, takes
3 their picture, they see the flash. I don't understand it.
4 They are, again, annoyed by it. And we live and we go on.
5 Yes, I have been -- I believe 100 percent my
6 office has been broken into repeatedly. I can't prove it
7 because the cops can't figure it out. And -- but things are
8 moved around, lights are left on, things like that. I have
9 no proof it is the Church. I never had that experience
10 before I took this case.
11 My volunteer people, like Patricia Greenway who is
12 not here today. She's part of the production company that
13 produced the movie, The Profit, Courage Productions. She
14 was set for deposition December 2001 by Mr. Moxon. It was
15 continued for her to get a lawyer, reset for either January
16 or February. In January the Church, the Palm Springs org,
17 files a police complaint against her, Mr. Croates
18 (phonetic), who used to be a private investigator for the
19 Lisa McPherson Trust, and Frank Oliver, accusing them of
20 being suspects in an arson, criminal arson, against the
21 Church in Palm Springs, Florida. And that investigation is
22 still open. I mean, that got her all excited, to put it
23 mildly.
24 And Mr. Garko was sued by the Church of
25 Scientology before Judge Baird. We recently saw Mr. Moxon
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1 meeting with him in private, then he resigns as my trial
2 consultant shortly after he testified here. And then they
3 write a letter dismissing him, they are not going to be
4 pursuing that, saying they had no facts to sue him. Well,
5 they should not have done it in the first place. But that
6 caused a lot of concern with Dr. Garko. And I'm still, I
7 guess, a potential defendant in that case. We haven't had a
8 hearing on that yet.
9 THE COURT: What case is that?
10 THE WITNESS: That is the breach of contract
11 case in front of Judge Baird.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q Well, Mr. Dandar, in the context of what you just
14 testified to --
15 THE COURT: Wait a second.
16 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge.
17 THE COURT: I heard you say earlier, when you
18 were maybe talking too fast -- but did I hear you
19 say something about your phones or your credit? Or
20 your phone or your -- either your phone or credit?
21 Did I hear you say something about either of those?
22 THE WITNESS: Actually, I said both. This is
23 what I said. Let's see.
24 When I went to buy a house, on the same street
25 where my other house was -- I moved down the
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1 street -- I believe this was in the summer of '99,
2 applied for a mortgage. And when I went to apply
3 for a mortgage, my credit report came back.
4 I was denied a mortgage at first because I had
5 these three phone bills. That is where they come
6 together. Three phone bills appear on my credit
7 report. And -- one in Minneapolis, one in Dallas,
8 Texas and one in Southern California. And they had
9 my Social Security number on all of those. But they
10 had some of my other family history incorrect. But
11 they still were under my name, under my Social
12 Security number, on my credit report, which caused
13 my mortgage company to say no until I got rid of
14 those charges.
15 THE COURT: These were three bills -- three
16 phone bills in three different cities or states that
17 were not yours, I gather?
18 THE WITNESS: Right. I never lived there.
19 THE COURT: Still unpaid at the time you made
20 your application?
21 THE WITNESS: Correct. That is the first time
22 I discovered, when I made my application for a
23 mortgage.
24 THE COURT: Where were they? What cities and
25 states?
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1 THE WITNESS: Dallas, Texas phone company where
2 Lisa McPherson used to work.
3 THE COURT: Dallas, Texas --
4 THE WITNESS: Phone company.
5 THE COURT: What is it, is this a number? Just
6 a number out there?
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, it is like -- I think
8 it is called -- I can't remember the name, Southern
9 Bell located in Dallas, Texas. Someone went to an
10 apartment, opened up -- you know, rented an
11 apartment, I guess in my name, I don't know about
12 that, but they opened up a phone service, private
13 phone service, residential, in my name in Dallas,
14 Texas.
15 THE COURT: Made long distance calls?
16 THE WITNESS: Ran up a bill.
17 THE COURT: Didn't pay it?
18 THE WITNESS: Didn't pay it. Somebody went to
19 Minneapolis where Dr. Coe is and Dr. Bandt, opened
20 up a residential phone service in my name, ran up
21 the bill and then didn't pay it.
22 Somebody went to Southern California, opened
23 the account, same thing, ran up a phone bill, didn't
24 pay it.
25 So they all show up on my credit report.
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1 THE COURT: All in your name with your Social
2 Security number attached to it?
3 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
4 THE COURT: Did you ever live in any of those
5 three places?
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 THE COURT: Did you ever have phone service in
8 your name in any of those three places?
9 THE WITNESS: Never.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: So what I did, I had to go to the
12 City of St. Petersburg, because I lived here for a
13 long time, you know, and I have been a resident of
14 Tampa Bay for 24 years, between St. Pete and Tampa.
15 And I had to go get my utility bills for these
16 months and I had to send them in.
17 Everyone dismissed those bills off my credit
18 report except the phone company where Lisa McPherson
19 used to work where I know that her boss was a
20 Scientologist, because that is what her mother told
21 me. So that bill remained unpaid.
22 I sent them all of the stuff. They refused to
23 take it off my credit report. I could have sued.
24 But my bank said, "Look, we'll pay the bill
25 ourselves. We want your business." So they paid
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1 the bill.
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q In the context of --
4 THE COURT: Got your credit cleared up
5 eventually?
6 THE WITNESS: Right, because the bank lending
7 me the money for the house said, you know, "We'll
8 pay the darned thing off," because I was going to
9 sue. And I don't have time to do that.
10 THE COURT: Anything else like that, or like
11 what you have just been telling us that can explain
12 stuff?
13 THE WITNESS: I have had lawyers call me up.
14 You can go investigate my clients, I guess, and
15 ask -- tell them I'm a criminal. But I had lawyers
16 call up telling me -- saying they had been
17 contacted.
18 I had an insurance investigator, also, who is a
19 client of mine -- or was a client of mine. But he's
20 a business acquaintance more than anything else.
21 And he called me up and said, "Look, I just got a
22 call from some guy in California. They're looking
23 for a good lawyer. They mentioned your name. They
24 wanted to know as much as I would tell them about
25 you, and I hung up on them."
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1 I said, "Well, that is great."
2 Now I don't know who it was. It could have
3 been a coincidence.
4 Mmm, you can see I'm well rehearsed for this
5 because I'm trying to remember all these things.
6 There are quite a few. I'm not well rehearsed for
7 this question.
8 THE COURT: File an affidavit.
9 THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
10 THE COURT: File an affidavit.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. But people associated with
12 me like Peter Alexander, who did the movie The
13 Profit, he goes to Germany to the film festival.
14 Somebody goes into his hotel lobby where the
15 trailers of his movie are, he looks just like Peter
16 Alexander, he signs the movie and takes the
17 trailers, and the movie trailers are all stolen.
18 I can go on, but that would be rank hearsay to
19 go on.
20 THE COURT: I'm talking about things that
21 specifically you think happened to you that you
22 would -- but you are saying you knew about some
23 other things that also influenced you to think
24 that --
25 THE WITNESS: All these things -- these are
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1 things that --
2 THE COURT: That influenced you?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, since '97. The other thing
4 is the credit card -- or the credit report was one
5 thing. But on my credit report there were also
6 inquiries made by different companies. And I didn't
7 do -- that is the first time I heard Hana Whitfield
8 talk about that. I didn't do what she did. I
9 didn't call up and try to investigate this. I just
10 saw there were a bunch of inquiries made on my
11 credit report, which also caused me some financing
12 difficulties, I'll say, in -- down the road because
13 no one -- I could not explain why these inquiries
14 were being made on my credit report when I didn't
15 apply for credit with any of those companies. They
16 just -- it just shows up on your credit report and
17 that causes your credit rating -- which mine was
18 very high -- to start to go down and cause people
19 who want to lend you money or finance things to ask
20 you a lot of questions.
21 Mmm, I have had numerous people call me up who
22 want to give me information but they don't want to
23 give me their real names. They are former
24 Scientologists.
25 Mmm, the woman that came in here, Nancy Many,
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1 last week, she communicated to me maybe a year ago
2 under an assumed name. I didn't know who she was.
3 It wasn't until -- it was only two or three days
4 before she decided to get the nerve up to come and
5 testify did she give me her real name. And I
6 couldn't -- she wouldn't even tell me in confidence
7 because -- well, because you just don't do that.
8 So when Mr. Minton comes around and says
9 friends in Europe, and I already know about people
10 in France and Germany who support this case, they
11 want to send money, I don't know their names. I
12 still don't know their names.
13 So when Mr. Minton shows up -- and this has
14 been going on ever since I took this case -- when
15 Mr. Minton shows up with his UBS check, it doesn't
16 seem farfetched. I believed Mr. Minton, because at
17 that point in time I trusted Mr. Minton. I mean, he
18 was a person who put his money where his mouth was
19 and he was real. And he was sincere.
20 And he wasn't out to take down the Church of
21 Scientology. He wanted to do -- he wanted to expose
22 what Fannie McPherson wanted, their abuse.
23 And I have a video of Fannie McPherson, sitting
24 on my laptop, of her talking to a German
25 interviewer, telling the German interviewer what
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1 they did to her daughter. And they accused me of
2 making all these allegations up. I got all that
3 from Fannie McPherson saying that "They killed my
4 daughter."
5 THE COURT: Fannie McPherson would not know
6 what happened to her daughter, right? She
7 absolutely would not know. Now, that answer is a
8 yes.
9 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, she would not know.
10 But she did talk to me. That was a year after she
11 talked to the police. And she was upset that she
12 had her daughter's remains cremated, she was told
13 that is what her daughter wanted. And no one in the
14 family has ever been cremated before. And being
15 cremated in this case has been a drawback for
16 everyone, even the defense says they wish she wasn't
17 cremated. And it's -- it's a hindrance to proving
18 the case, although we do have the other evidence of
19 vitreous.
20 But as I sit here today, I mean, I just can't
21 remember any more instances.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 THE WITNESS: But I just know there are very
24 few people like Mr. Prince or Hana Whitfield or some
25 other former Scientologists who are willing to be
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1 known to talk about Scientology.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Prince had the criminal case.
3 We already addressed that in hearing.
4 THE WITNESS: That is another instance. But
5 Mr. Prince had that criminal case, that is right.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Minton had a criminal case.
7 THE WITNESS: He had two criminal cases which
8 he was not convicted of.
9 Mr. Bunker had a criminal case in Chicago in
10 which he was not convicted.
11 And then you haven't mentioned the harassment
12 time line. I did not make up my own time line.
13 I have had credit card entries. Somebody
14 purchased $8,500 of stereo equipment on my credit
15 card. My credit card company caught it. Someone
16 purchased a $2,800 diamond ring from Spiegel catalog
17 in December 2000. Not mine. My credit card company
18 caught that.
19 BY MR. LIROT:
20 Q So, Mr. Dandar, in the context of obviously what
21 you have testified to are suspicious circumstances, and I
22 guess coupled with Mr. Minton having given you checks before
23 the -- I guess the May 2000 check, written on his own
24 account, signed by him, did it seem strange that you would
25 be getting this $500,000 check from -- from sources that
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1 were represented to you wanted to remain anonymous?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 BY MR. LIROT:
5 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you about, apparently,
6 another check drawn on UBS account given to Courage
7 Productions.
8 A Correct.
9 Q Did you ever see that check before it was attached
10 as an exhibit to the motion that is before the Court?
11 A Never.
12 Q Were you ever told about that check by anybody
13 associated with Courage Productions?
14 A No.
15 THE COURT: What was the date of that check? I
16 know it is in evidence but -- I think it is in
17 evidence. Anybody?
18 MR. FUGATE: It is either May of 2000 or --
19 MR. WEINBERG: We'll find it. It is in 2000, I
20 believe.
21 THE COURT: Well, I can find it if it is in
22 evidence. Is it in evidence?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
24 MR. FUGATE: It is.
25 MR. LIROT: Yes, it is an exhibit to the
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1 original motion, I believe, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. WEINBERG: And it was also one of the ones
4 that Mr. Minton put in. He got some stuff from the
5 Swiss bank, if you'll remember.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead, I'm sorry, I didn't mean
7 to interrupt.
8 BY MR. LIROT:
9 Q Mr. Dandar --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me for a second. It is
11 Defense Exhibit 122, your Honor, according to our
12 record.
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q I'm going to show you again I think what
16 Mr. Weinberg -- forgive me, Judge, I don't know if this has
17 been entered into evidence, this is Exhibit 269 -- the --
18 it's been represented as evidence of a wire transfer to the
19 Lisa McPherson Trust.
20 A Right.
21 Q And I think it has been represented that that was
22 produced by Bank of America at a deposition.
23 A Right.
24 Q Have you ever seen that before?
25 A No.
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1 Q Down in about the middle of that exhibit, what
2 does it say about -- it says "name of originator."
3 A Apostolorum, which is A-P-O-S-T-O-L-O-R-U-M. I
4 have no idea what that is.
5 Q Down below that does it say, another, I guess,
6 source? It says, "one of our clients."
7 A Yes.
8 Q Does it say anywhere anything about Mr. Minton on
9 that document?
10 A No.
11 THE COURT: What is the number again? I know
12 it was just introduced, but I gave those all to the
13 clerk.
14 MR. LIROT: 269, Judge.
15 THE COURT: I'll probably be hearing about them
16 again.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q Is there any characteristic of that document to
19 lead anybody to believe that the funds allegedly represented
20 in there came from Mr. Minton or involved Mr. Minton in any
21 way?
22 A No. In fact, it is very deceptive. It says
23 Apostolorum as the originator to beneficiary. I don't know
24 what Apostolorum is. I don't know if that it someone's
25 name.
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1 THE COURT: So it doesn't identify the LMT,
2 either?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, as the recipient, yes.
4 THE COURT: All right. What is Apostolorum.
5 That is a name?
6 THE WITNESS: A name printed right here. It
7 has "originator."
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, the question that
10 you had asked me which I didn't answer by giving you
11 the exhibit, the date of the check is August 23,
12 2000 --
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- of the $500,000 check.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. And the date of the
16 wire transfer again?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is the --
18 THE WITNESS: March 19, 2001.
19 THE COURT: Thanks.
20 MR. LIROT: Forgive me if I asked this, Judge.
21 BY MR. LIROT:
22 Q Have you ever seen that document before?
23 MR. WEINBERG: You did ask that.
24 A No. No. I have never seen this.
25
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