0090
1
2
3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 2
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
+
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
Testimony of Kennan Dandar.
17
DATE: July 17, 2002.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
22 Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
23
24
25
0091
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18 Organization.
19 MR. ANTHONY J. BATTAGLIA and
MR. STEPHEN WEIN
20 BATTAGLIA, ROSS
980 Tyrone Blvd.
21 St. Petersburg, FL
Attorneys for Mr. Minton.
22
23
24
25
0092
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 CROSS Mr. Weinberg 114 2
Recess 184 13
4 Recess 245 12
Reporter's Certificate 246 1
5
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10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0093
1
2 (The proceedings were reconvened at 9:08 a.m.)
3 THE COURT: Good morning.
4 All right. Are we seeing the end, perhaps?
5 MR. WEINBERG: I think we're getting there.
6 THE COURT: All right. Couple of questions --
7 a couple things came to mind last night.
8 Number one, you probably better put in your
9 closing, or on a separate paper, the discussion that
10 I indicated real early on, about having both the
11 complaint and the counterclaim heard at the same
12 time.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
14 THE COURT: You know, I have mixed feelings
15 about it. Still do. But I might as well hear from
16 you all. So put it somewhere.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Would you like it in like a
18 separate document?
19 THE COURT: Maybe.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I think that would make more
21 sense.
22 THE COURT: It makes more sense. It's really
23 not part of the closing argument.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
25 THE COURT: I think we can -- we can conclude a
0094
1 couple of things.
2 Number one, if the case -- if the complaint and
3 the counterclaim are tried together, Mr. Dandar, you
4 would have to address in that pleading how you would
5 be able to remain as, I believe -- especially in
6 light of Mr. Minton's allegations that tend to
7 support the counterclaim -- that you would be
8 probably a necessary witness for the estate, since
9 you refute his allegations. And therefore I would
10 assume -- there's a canon, I believe, that suggests
11 that if you're a material witness, you can't be the
12 lawyer. So you would certainly need to address that
13 as part of your --
14 Regardless of the -- the first part of this,
15 that would certainly affect your ability to be
16 counsel on a consolidated claim, sort of. I call it
17 a consolidated claim for lack of a better word.
18 Let's see. The other thing I would need to
19 address, I suppose --
20 And I think counsel for Mr. Minton is present?
21 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: As of now, I believe he's a
23 defendant. There may be some question of that.
24 MR. WEIN: He's a party to the counterclaim.
25 THE COURT: Right. He's a party to -- so as to
0095
1 the counterclaim, he's a defendant, I guess, then.
2 So --
3 MR. DANDAR: Judge, may I interrupt you just a
4 minute, though?
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. DANDAR: There has not been a counterclaim
7 that has been filed yet with Mr. Minton named as a
8 defendant. All you've done is entered an order
9 adding him on, but for some reason -- I can only
10 surmise -- they have not filed that amended
11 counterclaim to add him in as -- as served. He
12 hasn't been served with any papers.
13 THE COURT: Well, he's filed a motion to
14 dismiss, so --
15 MR. DANDAR: By mistake.
16 THE COURT: I don't know if it's by mistake or
17 not. It hasn't been withdrawn.
18 I'm assuming for now that he is a defendant to
19 this counterclaim. I've given them permission to
20 file it. I've added him. There's a motion to
21 dismiss pending.
22 So one of the things that I would assume is
23 that if this is consolidated, this case cannot be
24 tried in September; that it would have to be, at the
25 very earliest, January; number one, because it would
0096
1 be doubtful that Mr. Minton could be ready, since
2 his lawyers have just come on board, and they
3 certainly most likely would not be available for the
4 September date, if he's not dismissed out based on
5 the motion to dismiss.
6 So I'm going to assume that.
7 Would that be a good assumption?
8 MR. WEIN: That would be a fair assumption,
9 your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. WEIN: Would you like us to -- I almost
12 hate to volunteer to do this, but if you're going to
13 hear from the parties on whether or not the
14 counterclaim needs to be severed from the main
15 action --
16 THE COURT: I think --
17 MR. WEIN: -- would you like to hear from us
18 on --
19 THE COURT: I would, yes. Because I think he
20 is a party to that. Therefore he would have a -- in
21 my mind. Now, maybe he needs -- an amended
22 counterclaim needs to be filed and he needs to be
23 named and he needs to be served and all that. But
24 that's going -- if it doesn't occur, I don't need to
25 worry about it. If it does occur, then I would need
0097
1 to hear from him as well.
2 MR. WEIN: Yes, ma'am.
3 THE COURT: So they've asked for three weeks
4 for a closing argument. Mr. Dandar has a week to
5 respond and they have a week to reply. So you might
6 consolidate with -- I don't care which side you
7 consolidate with, either at the end of the third
8 week after we're done --
9 I'm going to figure that I want three weeks
10 from Friday, done or not. I mean, we're close
11 enough to being done where you all can get started,
12 whoever's going to --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Would it be possible to be three
14 weeks from Monday instead of Friday?
15 THE COURT: You know, it helps me if I have it
16 three weeks from Friday. 'Cause I need the
17 weekends. That's when I get to work with this, so
18 three weeks from Friday. 'Cause I think we're going
19 to be done before Friday. I'm an eternal optimist.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm eternally optimistic
21 about that.
22 THE COURT: So if -- if you would like to
23 perhaps file your response to that three weeks from
24 Friday, no later than -- you can file it earlier if
25 you want to.
0098
1 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: And if you would in there -- I
3 would assume that Mr. Minton's need to be prepared
4 for the -- for the complaint itself is probably
5 somewhat minimal. The counterclaim is very
6 separate. It's an abuse of process, I think.
7 There's no question you have to be familiar enough
8 with it to know what it's all about, but I don't
9 know that you would need to be in a position to
10 cross examine the medical experts and all that sort
11 of stuff.
12 So I would like some idea as to when you could
13 be ready --
14 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: -- if it -- if it is -- if it is
16 severed, okay? All that bears, I suppose, on the
17 decision.
18 MR. LIEBERMAN: And your Honor, we will take a
19 look at the pleadings, and if they need to be
20 adjusted we'll --
21 THE COURT: It may well be. I mean, I gave him
22 permission to amend, to add him --
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
24 THE COURT: -- so I suppose he needs to be
25 added --
0099
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
2 THE COURT: -- in some fashion.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah.
4 THE COURT: You know, I don't know about
5 service, frankly. Once a motion to dismiss is
6 filed, seems like somebody's accepted the fact
7 they're a party to a lawsuit and they're responding.
8 MR. WEIN: To help you on that, your Honor,
9 reviewing the pleadings -- which we're still trying
10 to get through, because there is a load of them, as
11 your Honor's well aware --
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. WEIN: -- it appears that the motion to
14 dismiss and strike filed by Mr. Howie on
15 Mr. Minton's behalf indicated that he accepted
16 service of a copy of the counterclaim as it then
17 existed, but that counterclaim is not named.
18 Mr. Minton is a separate party. His name happens to
19 appear in the document.
20 THE COURT: Maybe that made the motion to
21 dismiss a lot easier.
22 MR. WEIN: That wasn't one of the grounds. I
23 think it needs --
24 THE COURT: I think --
25 MR. WEIN: -- to be --
0100
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. WEIN: -- in writing.
3 THE COURT: Well, we'll assume that the
4 pleadings need to be --
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Adjusted.
6 THE COURT: -- adjusted. And that if a motion
7 dismiss is filed, then we can hear it rather
8 readily.
9 That's the second thing I wanted to raise.
10 I -- because, of course, thought I was going to
11 be in trial, had lined up Judge Beach. I don't know
12 whether you all have lined up depositions for next
13 week. But if you haven't, I've got a couple of
14 motions pending that affect the first half of this
15 lawsuit.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we haven't, but we're
17 trying to arrange them for -- we're trying to get
18 dates from our --
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. WEINBERG: -- experts.
21 THE COURT: Well, what I'm trying to figure is,
22 if you're not going to be taking depositions next
23 week, I don't know why I can't hear those two
24 motions you have pending.
25 MR. WEINBERG: That would be a good idea.
0101
1 THE COURT: On the net accumulations, and the
2 motion for summary judgment on the battery.
3 Is there more?
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Is there a motion for summary
5 judgment on the battery?
6 MR. DANDAR: No. Negligence.
7 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry. On the negligence.
8 On one of the counts, remaining counts. Negligence.
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, actually -- I
10 mean, I was planning on being up in New York next
11 week.
12 THE COURT: Okay. It doesn't have to be done.
13 I'd like -- I'd like to get it done when I have
14 senior judge coverage --
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
16 THE COURT: -- because otherwise we're going to
17 have to fit those motions into my regular calendar,
18 and it's --
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
20 THE COURT: -- full, as you might --
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
22 THE COURT: -- well imagine. So since I have
23 the benefit of Judge Beach --
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
25 THE COURT: And once I get back into my regular
0102
1 docket, getting him in -- he'll be off doing with
2 you all or he'll be off helping someone else.
3 So if you were planning on being in New York,
4 why, you know, that's fine.
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay.
6 THE COURT: But if -- if we could -- see if you
7 can change your plans. If you can't, you can't.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah.
9 THE COURT: And we'll schedule them for some
10 other time.
11 But it needs to be done and it needs to be
12 done -- I believe you all would want it done soon
13 because, you know --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Before --
15 THE COURT: -- if you all are going to take all
16 these interlocutory appeals --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
18 THE COURT: -- or somebody -- there have been a
19 lot of interlocutory appeals taken.
20 So the case right now is set for trial in
21 September, and we need to press forward. That would
22 be the complaint only. So we need to assume for now
23 that that is all we're trying, if we try it, and
24 that all matters relating to that need to be
25 resolved.
0103
1 That's my third thing that came to my mind.
2 And that is, with -- yesterday Mr. Moxon indicated
3 that certain people will now maybe become witnesses,
4 and I presume they'll be deposed. I do not want
5 those depositions to interfere with the depositions
6 on the complaint --
7 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
8 THE COURT: -- because that case now is set for
9 trial, and I don't want it to be necessarily
10 postponed because a whole slew of depositions on the
11 counterclaim, which really isn't set, are set.
12 So --
13 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
14 THE COURT: -- work toward the depositions that
15 need to be taking for the complaint --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
17 THE COURT: -- first.
18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, that brings to mind,
19 Mr. Moxon wants to take Jeff Jacobsen's deposition
20 again, and I told you his deposition's already been
21 taken.
22 I talked to Mr. Jacobson, who lives in Arizona.
23 He's willing to fly here. But he said, "Look, I
24 already turned over the videotapes that I had, to
25 Mr. Moxon, in the first deposition." So -- I don't
0104
1 remember what happened in the first deposition, but
2 I think if he did turn over documents, they need to
3 tell us what they have so I can tell Mr. Jacobson
4 what they have and what they don't have.
5 He says there's only six videotapes, and it's
6 just him videotaping Scientology's PIs videotaping
7 him.
8 THE COURT: Well, has he turned those over?
9 MR. DANDAR: He said he turned them over
10 previously in his first deposition.
11 THE COURT: Oh.
12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I took that
13 deposition, and I don't recall that. But again,
14 I'll say I think it didn't happen, and I'll check
15 it, and if that's the case, I'll let Mr. Dandar
16 know. But I believe that he had nothing to turn
17 over at that time.
18 And this is only for the videos. It's not to
19 go into anything else. I think that was already
20 indicated to your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Well, if -- if -- then it seems
22 like if the -- there's a better way to do that. It
23 seems like that if -- if there are videos that you
24 already have, then you don't need --
25 MR. FUGATE: No. I --
0105
1 THE COURT: But if you don't have them, a
2 subpoena duces tecum, perhaps, just to produce them,
3 if he's willing to produce them, look at them and
4 see if he's just simply videoing another videoer
5 taking a video. I don't know how many questions one
6 would need to ask about that.
7 You know, there's all kinds of allegations
8 about abuse of process by the Church of Scientology.
9 It doesn't behoove the church to take an unnecessary
10 deposition.
11 MR. FUGATE: Don't have any interest in doing
12 that --
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 MR. FUGATE: -- either.
15 It's just really because when we made the
16 request that they be produced, they -- to
17 Mr. McGowan, because they were covered in the order,
18 he said he would get in touch with Mr. Jacobson and
19 request it; did; and Mr. Jacobson told him, "I'm not
20 giving you anything," as I understand it. So we
21 filed a -- the motion for the out-of-state
22 commission, and that's the only reason we did it.
23 THE COURT: But now he says he turned them over
24 at the first deposition.
25 MR. FUGATE: I'll check it, but --
0106
1 THE COURT: Check it out. And if he didn't,
2 maybe we could just ask him to produce them. And if
3 he does --
4 MR. FUGATE: Sure.
5 THE COURT: -- then you could look at them --
6 MR. FUGATE: Right.
7 THE COURT: -- and see if there's any real need
8 to depose the man.
9 MR. FUGATE: That would certainly be a lot
10 easier.
11 THE COURT: And again, as I said, I think that
12 before duplicate depositions are taken, that it just
13 makes good sense for both sides to get permission.
14 MR. MOXON: I think that's -- that's a good
15 idea. Maybe Mr. Dandar can give us his number. I
16 don't know if Mr. Dandar's representing him. He
17 didn't in the past. But I'd be happy to talk to
18 Mr. Jacobson and see what I can straighten out
19 formally, rather than going through Mr. Dandar as
20 to, "Mr. Jacobsen told Mr. Dandar this," so --
21 MR. DANDAR: I --
22 MR. MOXON: -- so give me his number and I'll
23 talk to him.
24 MR. DANDAR: I do not represent him, but I do
25 not feel comfortable giving his phone number out, so
0107
1 let me call him and see if it's all right first.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. MOXON: Or have him call me.
4 MR. DANDAR: Or have him call Mr. Moxon.
5 THE COURT: That would be good.
6 Okay. So those are some thoughts I had last
7 night. I think I've covered them.
8 I do want -- I would like to -- I think, when I
9 settle in to try to read what I need to read and
10 make a decision in what we've been hearing for the
11 last however many days it's been -- forever --
12 MR. WEINBERG: It's in the 30s.
13 THE COURT: It's in the 30s.
14 MR. LIROT: 34 today, Judge.
15 THE COURT: I would like to -- to contemplate
16 the other motions as well. So I would really like
17 to have you all set those.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
19 THE COURT: And if you don't, I'll probably set
20 them myself. So -- so best you all get together and
21 figure out a day.
22 Assume I can get senior judge coverage, so
23 assume --
24 MR. WEINBERG: You're pretty available.
25 THE COURT: Well, I am if I have senior judge
0108
1 coverage.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Oh.
3 THE COURT: Because as long as I have senior
4 judge coverage, I can let the senior judge do my
5 calendar.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
7 THE COURT: Sue tells me it's full. So I
8 really won't have time without senior judge
9 coverage.
10 MR. DANDAR: Tuesday, July 30th, would be fine.
11 I know Mr. Weinberg's on vacation next week. So we
12 can do it July 30th when he gets back. That's the
13 Tuesday after he gets back.
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll check and get back --
15 THE COURT: Okay. Check and get back.
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- your Honor.
17 I'm also concerned about -- I only have these
18 three weeks to get all this work done.
19 THE COURT: Well, just think about me.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: I know, Judge.
21 THE COURT: Would you think about me? Because
22 that's why I'm saying, let me have the weekends --
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, I know.
24 THE COURT: -- because that's what I --
25 weekends and nights. So whatever your problems,
0109
1 mine are worse.
2 (A discussion was held off the record.)
3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, there's one other
4 thing. There's some -- if you remember, some
5 additional e-mails had come up --
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. WEINBERG: -- and you said we could go back
8 to Mr. Minton. So we went to Mr. Battaglia, and he
9 got an affidavit from Mr. Minton, which I'm handing
10 up, which identifies -- one, two, three, four, five,
11 six, seven, eight -- nine e-mails that he's pulled
12 off his computer.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. FUGATE: Authenticates.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Huh?
16 MR. FUGATE: He authenticates.
17 MR. WEINBERG: That he -- that he
18 authenticates.
19 I guess -- what have we been doing with the
20 affidavit? Have we been filing them as exhibits?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Is that what we've been doing?
23 We mark this as our next exhibit.
24 THE CLERK: 264.
25 THE COURT: I did have one other thought too.
0110
1 This document yesterday, Mr. Dandar, that you
2 offered, that I did not accept, did you say you were
3 offering it to show a pattern of conduct of the
4 church and lawyers and --
5 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
6 THE COURT: -- lawyers opposing them?
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay. And then you all said that
9 you had a -- something where this person withdrew
10 this -- this affidavit.
11 MR. MOXON: That's right.
12 THE COURT: Yeah. I better have that.
13 MR. MOXON: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: But they also have another one,
15 according to Mr. Moxon, where he reinstates the
16 affidavit.
17 THE COURT: Whatever you have. Bring it in.
18 Let me take a look at it. I haven't read the -- I
19 haven't read it yet, but I need to know whether the
20 man even says that it's a valid affidavit or not.
21 MR. MOXON: Yeah. I think maybe he goes back
22 and forth.
23 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm handing -- I handed --
24 THE COURT: And then I will consider that.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right.
0111
1 THE COURT: But I have to see what the
2 documents are --
3 MR. DANDAR: All right.
4 THE COURT: -- as to whether or not that would
5 be admissible on that theory; not a theory of
6 relevancy otherwise.
7 MR. DANDAR: In a filing that we made, I
8 believe, yesterday, it included the affidavit of
9 Sandra Anderson, the Hospice worker for Fannie
10 McPherson. Counsel -- Mr. Weinberg objected and
11 wanted the deposition, so I gave the clerk the
12 deposition this morning of Sandra Anderson. And I'd
13 like to hand a copy to the court --
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. DANDAR: -- and just attach it to that
16 joint -- that exhibit that's called a notice of
17 filing --
18 THE COURT: Was it an affidavit?
19 MR. DANDAR: It was an affidavit of Sandra
20 Anderson. Now here's the deposition.
21 THE COURT: Okay. What I'm going to do, then,
22 in the light of the fact there's a deposition, I'm
23 just going to add it.
24 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. That -- that's --
0112
1 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know how to do that.
2 I'm just -- maybe we better make it the next number.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Make it B. Make it B of
4 whatever that exhibit was.
5 THE COURT: Do you have --
6 My poor clerk.
7 Do you happen to know what number that is,
8 Madam Clerk?
9 I told the chief judge it would be nice if I
10 could have some senior judge coverage for my having
11 to write an order, and he thought maybe two days
12 would be -- he said, "I'll give you a couple days."
13 So I have to have another chat.
14 (A discussion was held off the record.)
15 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, find it. If you find
16 it, let us know so we will not be held up. We
17 talked about it yesterday.
18 THE CLERK: Yes.
19 THE COURT: It was a big lot of things.
20 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. What is this --
22 Mr. Minton -- what is this, again, this --
23 MR. WEINBERG: These are e-mails that
24 Mr. Minton took off of his computer that were sent
25 to him. And he's authenticated the e-mails --
0113
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- including several that you've
3 seen that couldn't be authenticated until you told
4 me to go get an authenticating affidavit from him.
5 THE COURT: Okay. So these may have been
6 mentioned before.
7 MR. WEINBERG: A number of them have. And
8 we'll go over it in our rebuttal case, maybe, with
9 Mr. Dandar.
10 THE COURT: All right. All right. Mr. Dandar,
11 let's have you retake the stand.
12 (A discussion was held off the record.)
13 THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead.
14 And please let's remember what I said
15 yesterday. You all had a lot of --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
17 THE COURT: -- communication about some of what
18 he's testified to.
19 MR. WEINBERG: And there were few points we
20 were going to call Mr. Dandar on our rebuttal, so I
21 don't think this is going to be all that long, but
22 what I was going to do, if it's okay with the court,
23 is just complete what I needed to do with
24 Mr. Dandar.
25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
0114
1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Now, Mr. Dandar, Jesse Prince was on the payroll
4 of FACTNet, remember that, sometime in the summer and fall
5 of 1998?
6 A Only if that's what he said in his deposition.
7 Otherwise I wouldn't know.
8 Q Right.
9 And then after that, you remember that Mr. Minton
10 began to pay him around $5,000 a month in the spring of
11 1999?
12 A No. I had no knowledge of that. I mean, it
13 depends on what his deposition says.
14 Q And then on -- as of June 30th, 1999, you gave
15 Mr. Prince the first check -- the first $5,000 check, which
16 you continued to pay him on a monthly basis until May of
17 2000, correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Now, you were aware that in July -- on July 27th,
20 1998, Mr. Prince filed an affidavit in the FACTNet case.
21 A I can't -- no, I can't say I'm aware of that.
22 Q That wasn't one of the affidavits that you had
23 reviewed with Mr. Prince?
24 A I don't recall.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Mark this as our next exhibit.
0115
1 THE CLERK: 265.
2 MR. WEINBERG: This is 265, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q This'll be 265.
6 THE COURT: On these affidavits, it would be
7 very helpful to me if, somehow or another, you all
8 could, when you get toward the end, so -- maybe it's
9 late. But a lot of times you all have something on
10 the front that identifies what they're connected
11 with.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Could I possibly take that one
13 that --
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 MR. WEINBERG: -- has your name on it, and give
16 you this?
17 THE COURT: You're going to have to tell me the
18 number again.
19 MR. WEINBERG: 265.
20 THE COURT: Thank you.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q And if you turn to -- if you look at the back of
23 265, it's dated July 27th, 1998. And does --
24 Do you see that?
25 A Yes.
0116
1 Q And does that refresh your recollection that this
2 would have -- that this was done and ultimately identified
3 in Mr. Prince's August, '98 deposition; that this was done
4 in the FACTNet case?
5 A No.
6 Q And that was the first thing he worked on when
7 he -- when he first appeared in --
8 A I --
9 Q -- in --
10 A I can't swear under oath.
11 Q All right.
12 A I have no knowledge of this.
13 Q And then if you go to page 14, paragraphs 28 and
14 29, you see that's the same, almost exact same, PC folder
15 allegation that appears in the affidavit that Mr. Prince
16 filed in this case on August -- the one that's dated
17 August 20th, 1999, correct?
18 A Well, this is sworn testimony, so I don't think I
19 would call that an allegation.
20 Q Okay. In any event, you remember that at the time
21 that -- in 1999, when Mr. Prince went on your payroll, that
22 Mr. Prince filed a declaration in the Larry Wollersheim
23 case. Do you remember that?
24 A No.
25 And he wasn't on my payroll. He was an
0117
1 independent contractor.
2 Q In June of '99?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, let me -- and --
5 let me have the reporter (sic) -- reporter. I'm
6 sorry, Madam Clerk -- clerk mark as our next
7 exhibit --
8 THE CLERK: 266.
9 MR. WEINBERG: -- 266 --
10 Your Honor, this is 266.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Now, 266, that refresh your recollection that --
13 THE COURT: He just -- his recollection was, is
14 that he was not on his payroll. He objected to your
15 use of the word --
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
17 THE COURT: -- he was on his payroll.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'll rephrase the
19 question.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q This was executed on June 30th, 1999, correct?
22 A That's what it says.
23 Q And that happens to be the day of the first check
24 to Mr. Prince, that came from your office. Do you remember
25 that?
0118
1 A If that's what the check says, that's probably
2 correct.
3 Q All right. And if you look on -- on page 7,
4 paragraph 16, the same PC folder accusation appears that
5 subsequently appeared in the August 20 affidavit, right?
6 A Well, it's similar.
7 Q Okay. Now, throughout -- throughout this period
8 of time, with regard to Mr. Prince, you were getting money
9 from Mr. Minton to fund the litigation, correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And in fact on May 22nd, 1999 -- and we can pull
12 the checks if you want to -- there's a
13 hundred-thousand-dollar check dated May 22nd, 1999.
14 A Okay.
15 Q And shortly thereafter, Mr. Prince began to be
16 paid by you all, by the Dandar and Dandar law firm.
17 A Okay.
18 Q And then right after Mr. Prince began to be paid
19 the $5,000 a month, there was this Key West meeting in
20 August 8th or 9th through the 13th --
21 A Well --
22 Q -- of 1999 --
23 A -- I --
24 Q -- right?
25 A I believe -- first of all, I don't remember the
0119
1 exact date, but if you say it's August 8th or 9th, that's
2 fine.
3 Q All right. And -- and regardless of what
4 Mr. Prince says, there was certainly -- this was certainly,
5 among other things, a strategy -- a strategy session where
6 you, other members of the trial team in the Lisa McPherson
7 case, and lawyers from California discussed Scientology
8 litigation, right?
9 A False.
10 That's a multiple question anyway.
11 There was -- a meeting -- it was not a meeting.
12 It was a fishing trip. They were already down there
13 fishing. I just came down there to meet these attorneys
14 from California.
15 And there was no strategy session. Had nothing to
16 do with Lisa McPherson.
17 Q All right. So you never discussed with
18 Mr. Leipold or Mr. Greene them working with you on the Lisa
19 McPherson case.
20 A Not in Key West. I mean, we did talk about
21 Scientology, and we talked about their tactics. They told
22 me what I can expect to happen to me and my brother and my
23 family and my law firm. But we didn't talk about strategy
24 or them working for me.
25 Q All right. And you were there for a number of
0120
1 days, right?
2 A No. I think it was a -- I may have spent two
3 nights. But I didn't stay with them. I was by myself on a
4 different island.
5 Q Now, by the way, yesterday you said -- I believe
6 you said that you didn't care about adding David
7 Miscavige -- that wasn't something that -- that you really
8 cared about -- as a defendant to the lawsuit.
9 A Not because he's David Miscavige. I cared about
10 adding people onto the lawsuit who were responsible.
11 Q Well, I -- I think -- and correct me if I'm
12 wrong -- that you said that it wasn't that -- it wasn't a
13 big deal because you couldn't get money out of -- out of
14 Mr. Miscavige.
15 A Did I say that?
16 Q I think so.
17 A When?
18 Q Yesterday.
19 A I don't think so.
20 Q Okay.
21 A But anyway, you know, if it was the janitor -- if
22 he was a janitor and he was responsible, I would try to move
23 to add him on. It didn't matter to me what position he had
24 in Scientology.
25 Q Okay. And you said, I think, again, that one of
0121
1 the reasons it didn't matter is that you already -- at that
2 point you already had been given the permission to have
3 punitive damages. Do you remember saying that?
4 A No.
5 Q All right. But that would be -- if you said that,
6 that would be incorrect, because you didn't seek punitive
7 damages -- you sought punitive damages authorization at the
8 same time, in the same motion that you sought to add -- to
9 file the fifth amended complaint and add David Miscavige.
10 That was one joint motion, wasn't it?
11 A Is that -- is that how we did that? I thought the
12 punitives were already added, but the record will speak for
13 itself. I mean, you know --
14 Q Well, I just want to clear it up.
15 THE COURT: It doesn't matter. You don't need
16 to file another -- a copy of the complaint. The
17 punitive damages were asked for whenever they were
18 asked for, it's a part of the record in this case.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q All right. Well, what I'm referring to is a
21 motion to file amended complaint to allege claims for
22 punitive damages and motion to add party defendants, filed
23 September 7th, 1999.
24 A Right. But -- and I'll take you at your word. If
25 you say that's the first time I asked for punitive damages,
0122
1 then fine. But as I sit here right now, I can't tell you
2 that's accurate. But --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- let's just assume it is.
5 Q In any event, after the Key West meeting, right
6 after the Key West meeting -- we talked about this
7 yesterday -- you had a meeting with Ms. Brooks and
8 Mr. Minton in Philadelphia on August 26th, 1999.
9 A Yes. They did meet me in Philadelphia, I believe,
10 on the 20 -- 21st, 23rd, something like that, of August. So
11 that's like a couple weeks later.
12 Q And Mr. Minton -- remember Mr. Minton testified
13 that he told you that -- at this meeting, he testified that
14 he told you that -- that he wanted more focus on
15 Scientology, and that he wanted better -- you to use better
16 Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks?
17 A That's with a --
18 Q That was his testimony.
19 A Yeah.
20 That's incorrect testimony.
21 THE COURT: And we went through this.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Just --
23 THE COURT: We went through this on --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Just bear with me for a minute,
25 your Honor. I'm getting there.
0123
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q And you -- and in any event, at that meeting he
3 gave you $250,000.
4 A Well, either he did or he mailed it to me and I
5 got it the next day. It's one or the other. I mean, it
6 makes sense that he would have given it to me, since I was
7 there. And the check's dated the next day. But I don't
8 remember him giving me the check then. And that's -- to me,
9 it's not a big issue.
10 Q Now, in any event --
11 And by the way, that motion we just looked at to
12 add parties and to add punitive damages, Mr. Prince's
13 August 20th affidavit was -- was filed in behalf of both of
14 those motions, right; as evidence with regard to both of
15 those motions.
16 A It's probable, although Judge Moody only relied on
17 Dr. Minkoff's statement, being shocked and appalled at the
18 state of -- physical state of Lisa McPherson, as the basis
19 for punitive damages.
20 Q And remember, when we -- when I -- when we talked
21 about this a number of weeks ago, I -- I asked you whether
22 or not, at that Philadelphia meeting, there had been
23 discussion about adding David Miscavige, or expanding the
24 lawsuit, and -- or discussion about the Jesse Prince
25 affidavit, and you made the point that the Jesse Prince
0124
1 affidavit had already been done before the meeting.
2 A Well, yeah. There's -- Jesse Prince had been
3 working on that affidavit for a long time. And -- I mean,
4 it wasn't a day job; it was like a couple weeks, as I
5 recall.
6 Q And that affidavit, you testified, was executed on
7 August 20th, 1999.
8 A Well, whenever it says. The document speaks for
9 itself. Whatever it --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Do we have that?
11 THE COURT: If somebody knows the date,
12 whatever it says it says.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I need to -- I need to
14 pull that document, and one other --
15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to assume
16 Mr. Weinberg's correct on the date. All you have to
17 do is look at the affidavit.
18 THE COURT: If he isn't, why, it'll be
19 reflected in the record.
20 THE WITNESS: Right.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Now, you sent a copy by fax of the Jesse Prince
23 affidavit to Doug Crow at the State Attorney's Office,
24 correct?
25 A Well, I don't know, but I may have.
0125
1 Q And the point -- and you -- you actually sent it
2 to Mr. Crow before it was ever filed in this case, didn't
3 you?
4 A Can't say that one way or the other.
5 I mean, look; you're trying to connect all these
6 dots. There's no connection. But you got to show me
7 documents on when I sent things out in the mail three years
8 ago, or by e-mail or fax or whatever.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We'll mark as the next
10 exhibit --
11 THE CLERK: 267.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- 267.
13 A This says September 1st of '99.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q All right. And this is a fax that you sent from
16 your law firm --
17 You see at the top of each page --
18 You sent to Mr. Crow, correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 And his affidavit is not dated on this one.
21 Q No, it's not, is it?
22 Now, the reason that you sent this to Mr. Crow was
23 to see if it was possible to get Mr. Miscavige indicted with
24 these new allegations by Mr. Prince? Was that the purpose?
25 A No.
0126
1 Q Was it to enhance your case to see if they could
2 put more pressure on the Church of Scientology?
3 A No. Mr. Crow, sometime before this, had a request
4 of me that if I came up with any information that I thought
5 he would like to see, to send it to him.
6 Q Now, let me show you the August -- let me show you
7 the affidavit that you filed in your motion of Mr. Prince
8 and that you filed in this court in this hearing. And this
9 is the same affidavit that you sent to Mr. Crow, if you look
10 at the -- at the fax. You want to compare them?
11 A Mr. Weinberg, I'll take you at your word.
12 Q All right. But on the -- on the affidavit that
13 was filed in this case, in the motion, we have a notary seal
14 indicating that it was sworn to and subscribed on
15 August 20th, 1999 by Donna West, who's your assistant. Do
16 you see that?
17 A Right.
18 Q But the one that you sent to Mr. Crow, which is
19 the same affidavit -- and you'll see that the signatures
20 are -- is absolutely identical -- the one that you sent to
21 Mr. Crow, same signature, it's not notarized, is it?
22 A So? Just --
23 Q 11 days later or whatever it is.
24 A Just means it was copied before it was notarized.
25 That's all.
0127
1 Q Well, does it mean that the -- that the document
2 was backdated --
3 A Well, you know, I'm not going to --
4 Q -- by -- by Ms. West?
5 A No.
6 What I'm going to say to you right now is that I
7 cannot say that what I e-mailed to Mr. Crow did not have a
8 notary signature on it -- signature on it, and a stamp.
9 Q Well, you know that it is a violation of the law,
10 for a notary to notarize a document not signed in the
11 presence of the signatory, or to backdate a notary. You
12 know that that's a violation of the law, don't you?
13 A Sure.
14 You know what? Donna West is sitting right here,
15 so you're free to put her on the stand.
16 Q Well --
17 THE COURT: What's the relevance of this?
18 THE WITNESS: I'd like to figure that out too.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think that --
20 that --
21 THE COURT: What are you trying to do; get
22 Ms. West into some sort of trouble or --
23 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not. I'm not at all.
24 THE COURT: It really is irrelevant to this
25 case.
0128
1 MR. WEINBERG: I think that --
2 Well, let me just do this.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q I mean, isn't the truth that Mr. Prince's
5 affidavit was -- was -- had not been finalized and had not
6 been completed prior to the Philadelphia meeting, and it was
7 only -- and -- as indicated by the fact that a few days
8 later, it was sent to Mr. Crow?
9 A No. The truth is that when Donna West puts a date
10 on an affidavit, whether it's this one or any other one,
11 that's the date the person's standing in front of her
12 swearing under oath to the affidavit. Period. There's no
13 shenanigans on my part. You know, I don't have to do
14 anything in this case, of shenanigans, you know.
15 Q All right.
16 A There's no --
17 THE COURT: It is --
18 A -- conspiracy.
19 THE COURT: Irrelevant, Counsel. Move on to
20 some other area.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Okay. Now, you -- let's get to the issue as to
23 whether or not you had reason to doubt Jesse Prince.
24 THE COURT: Counselor, you've put this up here,
25 and I'm not sure --
0129
1 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry.
2 THE COURT: -- whether you want it back. I've
3 got so many copies of affidavits of Jesse Prince --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Another --
5 THE COURT: -- that I don't need another one.
6 MR. WEINBERG: And we offer into evidence, your
7 Honor, the Exhibit -- Exhibit 265, which is the '98
8 affidavit of Mr. Prince; 266, which is -- I mean --
9 266, which is the '99 affidavit of Mr. Prince; and
10 267, which is the fax transmittal that we just --
11 THE COURT: Any objection?
12 MR. LIROT: Judge, you've already ruled 267 is
13 irrelevant.
14 THE COURT: Well, no, I didn't rule 267 was
15 irrelevant. That may have some bearing on the fact
16 that he sent this to Mr. Crow, and what his reason
17 for doing this was. They'll have their impression
18 of that; you'll have yours.
19 That -- what I ruled was irrelevant was
20 whatever it was he was showing me about the fact
21 that Ms. West may have backdated or may have not
22 signed a notary stamp -- that's a problem between
23 the state attorney and Ms. West. If you want to
24 file a complaint, do it. Has nothing to do with
25 this.
0130
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Did you send it to Mr. Crow in order to enhance
3 the position of your case by --
4 THE COURT: Asked and answered. You've already
5 asked him that.
6 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q Now, let's talk about whether or not you had
9 reason to doubt Mr. Prince or Mr. Prince's August, 1999
10 affidavit. You've told -- you've repeated this a number of
11 times --
12 THE COURT: Counsel, you've been into this so
13 many times, about Mr. Prince, his reasoning -- I
14 mean --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Just bear with me. It's
16 really not going to take that long.
17 THE COURT: Well, I beared with you the last
18 time, and when you finally got to it, it absolutely
19 had nothing to do, except to perhaps to smear the
20 secretary.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, no. That wasn't the
22 purpose.
23 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what other
24 purpose you had.
25 MR. WEINBERG: He sent it to Mr. Crow. I
0131
1 mean --
2 THE COURT: Well, that was fine. But you went
3 on beyond that. And you really wanted to get to a
4 lawyer's secretary and whether she signed the thing
5 or whether she didn't; whether there was some, you
6 know -- you know -- that just isn't really
7 necessary.
8 So I'll listen, but you better connect it up,
9 because you've been through this and been through
10 this and been through this.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q All right. You were aware that he had left in
13 disgrace from the Church of Scientology, correct?
14 A No. Just quite to the contrary.
15 Q You were aware of the gun story. Mr. Prince had
16 told you that early on?
17 A Yeah. And it was a -- no one was afraid of
18 Mr. Prince with loaded guns. And I heard that from several
19 people.
20 Q And you knew that --
21 A Especially in front of Judge Moody.
22 Q And you knew he had a deep bias against the
23 church --
24 A No.
25 Q -- and against Mr. Miscavige.
0132
1 A No. Not at all.
2 Q You learned at some point that Mr. Miscavige was
3 meeting with Mr. McCabe with regard to the case, in the
4 fall -- regard to the criminal case, in the fall of '99,
5 correct?
6 A I think I learned that when it came out in the
7 newspaper, so whenever that came out.
8 Q Well, you were actually quoted in the newspaper
9 being very critical of Mr. McCabe meeting with -- with --
10 with Mr. Miscavige. Do you remember that?
11 A No.
12 THE COURT: Counsel, you know, you had a
13 document that they wanted to introduce that I kept
14 out at your request. You go into this and that
15 document becomes admissible.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Let me just make my point.
17 THE COURT: Well, make your point on that, and
18 I'm telling you, that document will become
19 admissible.
20 I mean, yes, Mr. Miscavige met with Mr. McCabe.
21 There's no question about it. He followed up with a
22 letter.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And there's nothing
24 wrong --
25 THE COURT: And the letter, I kept out at your
0133
1 request.
2 You want to get into this area, I'm going to
3 let that letter in.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not even sure what letter
5 you're talking about.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just going --
8 THE COURT: Well, I know.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to go ahead.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q You -- your case would have been greatly benefited
12 if Mr. Miscavige had been indicted, wouldn't it have?
13 MR. LIROT: Judge, that asks for speculation.
14 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
15 A I don't know. I mean, I had no idea.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q You had a duty -- you have a duty as a lawyer to
18 have something more than speculation to support a complaint,
19 allegations in a complaint, right?
20 A Sure.
21 Q You --
22 A Yes.
23 Q You knew, in 1999, at the time that you filed this
24 complaint making these allegations against Mr. Miscavige,
25 that the state attorney had conducted a long investigation,
0134
1 and it had been conducted by many fine prosecutors, who --
2 whose integrity was beyond reproach. You knew that, didn't
3 you?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you knew --
6 A As far as -- I mean, that's limited knowledge,
7 because I don't know what they know.
8 Q And you knew that they had charged the church in
9 the -- I think it was the fall of '98, correct?
10 A I assume so.
11 Q And you knew that they had not charged
12 Mr. Miscavige.
13 A Well, you know, there're two different standards
14 of proof.
15 And I also know they charged him with the most
16 flimsiest of criminal charges they could possibly come up
17 with.
18 Q Well, the point is, when you learned from the
19 newspaper, if it was the newspaper, that Mr. McCabe was
20 meeting with Mr. Miscavige, you didn't actually believe
21 Jesse Prince over Bernie McCabe, who had conducted this
22 two-year investigation, as to the involvement of individuals
23 at the Church of Scientology with regard to the death of
24 Lisa McPherson, did you?
25 A Well, the state attorney doesn't -- they tried to
0135
1 learn about Scientology, but as far as I know, they didn't
2 talk to high executives like Mr. Prince, who were no longer
3 associated with the church, to get the truth about how the
4 church operates. And I was very happy to have Mr. Prince
5 working for me, vouched by Vaughn Young, Stacy Young, and
6 other former executives of Scientology, as being a very
7 truthful individual.
8 And Mr. -- I still believe today that Mr. Prince
9 is not so biased against the Church of Scientology that I
10 wouldn't believe what he says, and when he proves them with
11 the documents of the Church of Scientology.
12 Q Well, you certainly don't believe that someone
13 like Mr. McCabe would have been meeting with an individual
14 who his investigation had demonstrated had committed murder.
15 You don't believe that, do you?
16 A I didn't understand your question.
17 THE COURT: All right. Counselor, that's
18 enough. That document is coming in --
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going on.
20 THE COURT: -- into evidence. It's in. It's
21 now admitted.
22 That meeting had to do with settlement -- it is
23 as clear as a bell -- and a settlement offer by the
24 church.
25 That document is admissible.
0136
1 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
2 THE COURT: Whatever it was, Madam Clerk, it's
3 now admissible.
4 You can't --
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Now --
7 THE COURT: -- imply things like that and not
8 have that document admitted. I tried to tell you
9 that. It's coming in.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
11 THE COURT: So Madam Clerk, find it so I can
12 put on the record what it is. And it is admissible.
13 And I have to assume that, from this letter,
14 it's a follow-up to their meeting where they
15 discussed settlement of the criminal charges.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Which of course were not
17 settled, as it turned out.
18 THE COURT: Because Mr. McCabe didn't accept
19 the offer.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
21 THE COURT: I mean, you're -- you're --
22 MR. WEINBERG: 'Cause --
23 THE COURT: Mr. Miscavige made an offer to
24 settle the criminal charges.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Without --
0137
1 THE COURT: PTI. And all the whole thing is in
2 there.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
4 THE COURT: To imply somehow otherwise in this
5 case is improper. That letter comes in.
6 Find it.
7 Go on ahead.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think we have anything
9 improper --
10 THE COURT: I don't know what you did, but I
11 know what David Miscavige did, based on the letter.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
13 THE COURT: Because the letter is from him.
14 MR. WEINBERG: And the letter speaks for --
15 speaks for itself and we have no problem with that.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q You denied that the LMT was used to be closely
19 associated and affiliated with the wrongful death case. Do
20 you remember saying that on --
21 A And I still say that. That's absolutely true.
22 Q And you said that you had nothing -- virtually
23 nothing to do with the LMT and the LMT had virtually nothing
24 to do with the case, right?
25 A Did I say virtually?
0138
1 Q I'm saying virtually.
2 A Ah. Thank you. So don't quote me, then, if it's
3 your words.
4 I said that the LMT and the wrongful death case
5 were totally separate.
6 Q Okay. But --
7 A Now, of course I had my expert witness,
8 Mr. Prince, working at the LMT. I had phone calls back and
9 forth between he and I and LMT's lawyer, because you and
10 Mr. Moxon were so intent on bringing the LMT into this
11 litigation.
12 Q All right. But Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince,
13 Mr. Oliver, Brian Haney --
14 THE COURT: You're going over old, old stuff,
15 Counsel. Honestly, you've explored this so much
16 when he was on the stand.
17 MR. WEINBERG: It's one question. I mean
18 yesterday he'd said again about the LMT. He was
19 asked that.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Start over.
22 THE COURT: But I mean, just because he was
23 asked it doesn't mean you haven't fully explored it.
24 MR. WEINBERG: It -- I really don't have that
25 long. I mean --
0139
1 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q But despite that, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince,
4 Frank Oliver, Brian Haney, David Cecere and Patricia
5 Greenway -- all people that were affiliated with the LMT, at
6 one time or another, were your trial consultants, correct?
7 A Well, over a broad statement like that, over one
8 time or another, that would be a correct statement. Put
9 them all together at one time, no.
10 Q Peter Alexander, Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks, Jeff
11 Jacobsen -- all have been designated in this case -- in this
12 case by you at one time as experts.
13 A As experts. Experts on -- as a former
14 Scientologists, that's right. Except Jeff Jacobsen. I
15 don't think he was designated as an expert on anything.
16 Q And then Mr. Prince, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Oliver,
17 Teresa Summers, Dan Leipold, John Merrett and Brian Haney,
18 they all testified in this proceeding and they all were
19 affiliated with the LMT, weren't they?
20 A At one time or another.
21 Q And Ray Emmons, your investigator -- you saw the
22 parrot video -- he was affiliated with the AMT (sic),
23 correct?
24 A At one time and then not afterwards.
25 THE COURT: You said the AMT. I presume you
0140
1 meant the --
2 MR. WEINBERG: LMT.
3 THE COURT: -- LMT.
4 MR. WEINBERG: LMT.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q And that amicus brief that was filed by Keith
7 Henson, he was on the LMT advisory board, wasn't he?
8 MR. LIROT: Objection. Relevance.
9 A I don't think so.
10 THE COURT: Well, we'll just go ahead and admit
11 his brief too, if we're going to talk about things
12 that I kept out.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
14 THE COURT: And we're going to see then what it
15 is that he's saying.
16 I mean, the truth of the matter is, Counsel, is
17 that these people, I have to presume, are the people
18 who were willing to be used.
19 Are there a lot of people besides the lady that
20 came in here yesterday, that you know of, that you
21 can use, other than the people that were also
22 connected with LMT, as either expert witnesses or
23 consultants on the Church of Scientology?
24 THE WITNESS: No. It takes a rare individual
25 to come out of Scientology and then say, "I'm
0141
1 willing to go in and testify."
2 THE COURT: Are there others that you're aware
3 of, that weren't connected with LMT, that you could
4 use for an expert, that would be able to tell you
5 and testify about things that went on in the church
6 or that could consult with you about those things,
7 same thing?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 THE COURT: Is there a limited number of
10 individuals that you're able to use?
11 THE WITNESS: Extremely limited.
12 THE COURT: And are those the same people that
13 LMT, with whatever -- whatever their purpose was,
14 whether it was as the -- as the defendants claim or
15 as you claim -- were those the people who were
16 willing to involve themselves in -- in whatever it
17 was, but anti -- we'll call it anti-Scientology
18 work?
19 THE WITNESS: Those were the only ones.
20 I mean, Hana Whitfield is a prime example. She
21 was in, she was out, she was in, she was out. And
22 then she was in. They scheduled her deposition in
23 February of 2002, this year. And boom, they get --
24 someone -- somebody gets a copy of her credit report
25 a few weeks before her deposition, and then she's
0142
1 out.
2 So I mean, it's very effective, how you -- you
3 can make someone like her decide --
4 THE COURT: As you sit here today, are you
5 aware of someone else you could have called or can
6 call now, as an expert or consultant, that wasn't
7 somehow or another willing to be connected with LMT
8 in their endeavors, whatever they were?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, Hana Whitfield was the only
10 one.
11 THE COURT: I asked you except for Hana --
12 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
13 THE COURT: -- Whitfield.
14 THE WITNESS: No. The answer is no.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q You put in that chart yesterday about the phone
17 calls, you just mentioned a few minutes ago, from the LMT to
18 your office, and you made the point about Jesse Prince?
19 A To my cell phone, yes.
20 Q Right.
21 And those calls for the most part were calls that
22 were made while Mr. Prince was on the payroll at LMT,
23 correct?
24 A That's probably true.
25 Q Okay. Now, you say that you told Mr. Minton --
0143
1 you said yesterday that you told Mr. Minton or encouraged
2 Mr. Minton -- and I think you said Mr. Prince -- not to
3 picket.
4 A Correct.
5 Q Okay. But you went -- you saw the video. You
6 went to the LMT, and you had a meeting with Dr. Garko,
7 Mr. Minton, Mr. Prince and Mr. Brooks -- and Ms. Brooks,
8 where you discussed the parameters of picketing under Judge
9 Penick's order. Do you remember that?
10 A I was doing my best to keep them in line with
11 Judge Penick's order, so that, you know, you couldn't use
12 some -- something they did against the order in the criminal
13 courtroom.
14 Q But you didn't tell them in that video not to
15 picket, did you?
16 A No. We had already exhausted that effort, and I
17 knew Mr. Minton's -- wasn't going to listen to me about
18 picketing.
19 Q Well, what about Mr. Prince? He was your trial
20 consultant.
21 A Well, you know, I didn't see Mr. -- I never seen
22 Mr. Prince picket until you produced those videos.
23 Q So that was a revelation to you when you saw
24 these -- all these videos, and Mr. Prince was out there with
25 Mr. Minton and others, shouting obscenities and making a lot
0144
1 of noise and carrying pickets in front of the church
2 buildings in Clearwater?
3 A I only knew one thing for sure, and demonstrated
4 by your videos, that Mr. Minton and Mr. Prince were quiet,
5 well-mannered picketers until your minsters of your client
6 started to shout --
7 THE COURT: The truth of the matter --
8 A -- obscenities at them.
9 THE COURT: -- is, Counselor, surely any lawyer
10 would not want his consultant out there saying and
11 doing the things Mr. Prince was doing, knowing that
12 he's going to have to be confronted with those in
13 court, as a showing of bias. I mean, he's already
14 said he's going to try to eliminate those under 401,
15 whatever that section of the evidence code is that
16 the prejudice outweighs the probative value. He's
17 not likely to prevail in that.
18 But surely you can't think that he's very
19 pleased about that.
20 THE WITNESS: That's for sure.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Did you have any conversations with the other
23 consultants, Frank Oliver, Patricia Greenway, David Cecere,
24 not to participate in pickets?
25 A They weren't my consultants then. Best of my
0145
1 recollection. I mean, Patricia Greenway just became -- and
2 I misspoke a couple weeks ago. I mean, she really started
3 to talk to me more daily --
4 THE COURT: I don't even know --
5 A -- Mr. Cecere --
6 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second.
7 Was Patricia Greenway a member of the Church of
8 Scientology?
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 THE COURT: I don't even know that.
11 THE WITNESS: No. No. She --
12 MR. WEINBERG: No. She was not. Peter --
13 THE COURT: What was --
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- Alexander --
15 THE COURT: -- she consulting with you about?
16 THE WITNESS: She knows quite a bit about it
17 because her boss, Peter Alexander, is a -- was that
18 Celebrity Center Scientologist. And she had to go
19 over to Flag to take Scientology courses in order to
20 work for his company, which was a WISE company, a
21 company that ran under the Hubbard tech.
22 So she's quite familiar with Scientology.
23 She's a quick learner.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q In any event, every opportunity you had, you
0146
1 aligned yourself with the critics or the anti-Scientologists
2 at the LMT, correct?
3 A False.
4 Q Well, you represented Mr. Oliver at the PSTA
5 meeting.
6 THE COURT: Don't have to go through what
7 you've already been through.
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
9 A That had nothing to do --
10 THE COURT: Make your point in closing
11 arguments.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
13 A Nothing to do with LMT.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q Now, you said that -- that you and your client
16 were not enthusiastic -- this is when you were on the stand
17 earlier -- that you and your client were not enthusiastic
18 about the opening of LMT or about the LMT itself. Do you
19 remember that testimony?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Yet -- you saw the video -- you were at the
22 closing of the building in January of 2000, right?
23 A Well, I was invited over, and I went over there.
24 Doesn't change my opinions.
25 Q And do you remember what you said on the video,
0147
1 that it's a great day for Clearwater? Do you remember
2 saying that?
3 A Yes. I thought it was a good idea on what they
4 said they were going to do, as far as helping people who
5 needed to leave Scientology.
6 Q And do you remember, during that video, that the
7 person selling the building asked Mr. Prince what he -- what
8 his involvement was? This was in January of 2000, when he
9 was your consultant on -- being paid by you. And he said,
10 "I'm working as the VP at LMT"? Do you remember that?
11 A Right. He was a volunteer at that time with the
12 LMT. But he wasn't the big boss, as you alleged.
13 Q Now, you said that no one at the LMT was doing
14 things for you with regard to the case. Leaving Mr. Prince
15 aside.
16 THE COURT: I don't -- I don't recall him
17 saying that.
18 A I don't either.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Well, let me ask the question.
21 THE COURT: I remember lots of folks from LMT,
22 as you just pointed out, were either his expert at
23 one point in time or a consultant --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
25 THE COURT: -- at one point in time. I have to
0148
1 presume --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Did --
3 THE COURT: -- they were doing something --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Let --
5 THE COURT: -- for him.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Let -- let me put the question
7 more -- more clearly.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Did you use the -- any employee at the LMT to
10 assist you with -- with regard to setting up witnesses for
11 the wrongful death case; getting witnesses for the wrongful
12 death case?
13 A Not in their capacity as an employee of the LMT.
14 So you're going to have to be more specific.
15 Q Did you --
16 A You mean, did I use Jesse Prince to help me find
17 somebody? I don't think so.
18 Q Did you send e-mails back and forth? Were e-mails
19 sent back and forth between your office and the LMT about --
20 about witnesses for the wrongful death case?
21 A You got to be more specific.
22 Q All right. Teresa Summers was not your
23 consultant, was she?
24 A No.
25 Q And she was an -- she was an employee at the LMT,
0149
1 wasn't she?
2 A I believe she was, after I took her first
3 deposition, about four or five months later. Or after
4 Mr. Moxon took her deposition. I believe May of 2000 was
5 the deposition, and she became employed --
6 Q Like --
7 A -- October or November of 2000.
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right. If I could have the
9 next exhibit marked, please.
10 THE CLERK: 268.
11 MR. WEINBERG: This is 268, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q This is Exhibit 268, Mr. Dandar.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Now, this is a document that -- you see it -- I
17 put in yellow, "The top document is an e-mail received from
18 Dandarlaw@aol.com -- that's your e-mail address, correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q It says, "For T. Summers at lisatrust.net, re:
21 Woodcrafts. Do you see that?
22 A Right.
23 Q Now, Leslie Woodcraft is a Scientologist who is
24 one of the people who stayed with Lisa McPherson during the
25 17 days, correct? You were aware of that, right?
0150
1 A Sure.
2 Q You took her deposition.
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, this particular e-mail, which is dated
5 October 25th, 2000, from the lisatrust -- this particular
6 e-mail from you to Ms. Summers says, "Will her family talk
7 to me, question mark, Ken." Do you see that?
8 A Right.
9 Q So you were --
10 And then if you go to the second page --
11 A All right.
12 Q -- that's an e-mail back to you from Teresa
13 Summers, correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And that e-mail is dated October 25th, 2000 as
16 well. Do you see that?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And then the answer is, "Re: Astra and the other
19 Woodcrafts --" that's Leslie Woodcraft, the witness -- our
20 witness's family, correct?
21 A That's her -- that's her ex-husband and her
22 children.
23 Q And --
24 A Adult.
25 Q -- Ms. Summer --
0151
1 A Adult children.
2 Q I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
3 And Ms. Summers tell you in this e-mail, "Though
4 they did not know Lisa, they are the husband and children of
5 Leslie Woodcraft, who was one of the Lisa watchers and to
6 whom they spoke after Lisa's death. You have depoed --" I
7 guess that means deposed, "-- Leslie. Leslie told these
8 family members that Lisa was, quote, just a nut, and it did
9 not matter that she died." And then there are -- "Teresa,"
10 she signs it, and then there's a footnote, "Also Greg Barnes
11 knew Lisa well and was in Scientology at the time of her
12 death. I have asked him to get in touch with you."
13 So my question to you is, the fact is, is that you
14 did, from your law firm, ask employees at the Lisa McPherson
15 Trust to do work with regard to the wrongful death case,
16 didn't you?
17 A No. That's not accurate.
18 This is what's accurate: Teresa Summers, when she
19 came across a person that she thought could help me, like
20 the Woodcraft family, who talked about all the roach
21 infestation, which is not in this e-mail -- but she would
22 say, like this e-mail says: "I found this person." And
23 then I write back to her and say, "Well, will they talk to
24 me?" And then she finds out if they'll talk to me. Because
25 I don't want to be approaching people who just left
0152
1 Scientology, 'cause they're not really all that mentally
2 well, so they need some time to settle down.
3 And she would -- apparently had talked to them.
4 And the mother, who was an attendant of Lisa McPherson,
5 called Lisa McPherson a nut and said that it didn't matter
6 that she died. And that's how that started.
7 Greg Barnes -- he's right here in Clearwater,
8 former Scientologist. And I didn't know that. And Teresa
9 Summers is telling me this.
10 So it's not me making a request to her; she's
11 volunteering this information to me.
12 Q Well, it sure sounds like --
13 THE COURT: Save it for your closing argument.
14 "Sure sounds like" sure sounds like a lawyer getting
15 ready to make a closing statement.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q But you also had phone calls with Teresa Summers,
18 while she was employed at the Lisa McPherson Trust, about
19 other alleged facts, correct?
20 A I'm sure I did.
21 Q You talked to her about the roaches. You asked
22 her about roaches. Do you -- do you remember that?
23 A Yes.
24 Q So you were talking to her and other -- other
25 members of the trust about your lawsuit, this wrongful death
0153
1 case. They were involved, weren't they?
2 A Of course. They're former Scientologists.
3 But telling me that they're involved in my case is
4 a lot more than what you're talking about.
5 Q Ms. Summers wasn't working for you at the time of
6 that e-mail, was she?
7 A She's never worked for me.
8 Q Now, anybody other than Ms. Summers, did you
9 engage in phone calls like that, or e-mail traffic like
10 that, in which they called you and said, "I've got something
11 helpful in the case," or you called them for help in the
12 case;" anyone else? Leaving aside Mr. Prince.
13 A I have more than I can count, people from around
14 the world sending me information like that.
15 Q I said the Lisa McPherson Trust, is what I said.
16 A Oh, I'm sorry.
17 Well, Jeff Jacobsen would contact me quite often,
18 before he joined the Lisa McPherson Trust and after he
19 joined the Lisa McPherson Trust, but he wasn't working for
20 me. And --
21 I mean, I don't know who else.
22 Q Okay. You testified, again yesterday, that
23 moneys -- that the moneys from Mr. Minton were loans to you
24 personally.
25 A That's right.
0154
1 Q Okay. And that at the beginning of 2000,
2 thereabouts, the end of '99 or the beginning of 2000, you
3 had an oral conversation -- I guess conversations are
4 oral -- you had a conversation with Mr. Minton where the
5 deal or the arrangement changed and you now were authorized
6 to use the money any way you wanted, correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Now, where did this conversation take place?
9 A It was here in Clearwater.
10 Q And what were the circumstances of it?
11 A My best recollection is that we were just there
12 for the vigil of Lisa McPherson.
13 Q All right. And you -- and --
14 A I mean, I can't say that, 'cause of course that
15 only happens once, in December --
16 Q And --
17 A -- and --
18 Q And if you didn't --
19 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.
20 A So it could be -- I mean, that could be where it
21 was.
22 But he had the same reaction as he had in this
23 courtroom where he said it didn't matter to him.
24 Q Okay. And you didn't feel it necessary to write a
25 letter to him, copying your client, saying that, "We got a
0155
1 new deal, and all this money that you have already given me,
2 and will hopefully give me in the future, I can use it any
3 way I want to. Doesn't even have to be used on the case --"
4 you didn't think that was necessary to put in a letter?
5 A No. It certainly wasn't necessary to my client.
6 Q Well, it wasn't necessary for your own protection?
7 A Well, 20/20 hindsight, yes, I should have written
8 a letter to Mr. Minton. But at that point in time, we had
9 what I thought -- and I still believe we did have at that
10 time -- a really good relationship of trust.
11 Q And I think -- and am I right that the -- that
12 the -- that the event or the set of circumstances that led
13 to this change was your having cancelled all your cases and
14 needing income, basically.
15 A Correct.
16 Q So that it was your intention to begin to take the
17 funds that were given to you by Mr. Minton and use them
18 personally as opposed to on the case.
19 A No. What the funds -- the funds --
20 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, this gets into
21 that Second DCA decision, and I don't think I should
22 go there, unless, Judge, you tell me I should go
23 there. But I don't think -- you know, what -- just
24 like the Second DCA said, it's none of the business
25 of Scientology --
0156
1 THE COURT: What the Second DCA said is the
2 moneys being given to you to fund the case and how
3 much money you have to fund the case is irrelevant
4 to the opposition, because it appears to the Second
5 DCA that perhaps they were trying to bleed you out
6 of that money, and they ought not be able to know
7 how much you've got so that they can do that.
8 That's basically what that said.
9 THE WITNESS: That's right.
10 THE COURT: I don't think that would have
11 anything to do, that opinion, with moneys that were
12 given to you as a loan for your own business. I
13 mean, for your own income. I suspect they were
14 talking about moneys that you had for the use of the
15 case. I don't know that, because I -- but I assume
16 that's the posture in which that case was.
17 MR. WEINBERG: That's the way I read it.
18 THE COURT: I didn't see all the briefs. Maybe
19 they submitted --
20 But the way I read it is that they were talking
21 about moneys that you had been given in trust,
22 whatever you want to call it, somehow or another, to
23 use for the case.
24 I doubt that the Second District or me or
25 anybody else would -- would be interested or think
0157
1 it was relevant about money -- to write an opinion
2 on -- moneys that somebody had given you to live on.
3 I don't know that I'd let them go there either.
4 THE WITNESS: I think that's where he wants to
5 go.
6 MR. WEINBERG: What I want --
7 THE WITNESS: I don't want to answer the
8 question.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I don't want to know how you
10 spent it. I just want him to answer the question.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q So as of that time, you could -- you -- in light
13 of what you told Mr. Minton; you told him that you intended
14 to take some or all -- you can tell us what -- of the money
15 that he was giving you and use it to supplement your income.
16 THE COURT: He said he could use it any way he
17 wanted to at that point in time.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I want to be more
19 specific.
20 THE COURT: Oh.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q You intended, by this new agreement with
23 Mr. Minton, to be able to use the money for personal things
24 if you wanted to.
25 A That's right. I can use it any way I wanted to.
0158
1 Q Now, you didn't see that it was necessary to go
2 back, then, to the Florida Bar, in January of 2000, to get
3 an opinion if it was appropriate to enter into an agreement
4 like this with a third party with regard to a lawsuit where
5 you could do anything you wanted to with the money? You
6 didn't think that that was something that you needed to do?
7 A No. In fact, I confirmed that recently. They
8 said, "We don't care where you go borrow money, personal
9 loans. We're not interested in that."
10 Q All right. In any event, a few months later, in
11 May of 2000, Mr. Minton gave you the UBS $500,000 check in
12 that Bombay Bicycle Club, right?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And he didn't tell you -- you asked him who it was
15 from, and he said, "Friends in Europe."
16 A Right.
17 Q Now --
18 And he wouldn't tell you who the friends were.
19 A Right.
20 THE COURT: If he asked. I mean, I don't
21 even --
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Did you ask him who the friends were?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q And you didn't have a loan agreement with them.
0159
1 A With the friends?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Right. I didn't have a loan agreement.
4 Q And did these European people, these friends in
5 Europe, who you didn't know who they were -- did -- did
6 somebody -- did they authorize and say that it was okay for
7 you to spend this money, $500,000, on personal things, any
8 way you wanted to?
9 A You know, I had no communication with these
10 people, all right? I didn't communicate with anyone
11 except --
12 If they trusted Mr. Minton enough him give him a
13 $500,000 check, you know, I didn't worry about the friends
14 in Europe and what they were -- asking me any questions. I
15 didn't -- didn't --
16 Q Well, if you --
17 A Still don't.
18 Q And the -- and the only -- and the whole deal was
19 you only had to pay it back if you won the case. In other
20 words, got enough money from the settlement to cover it,
21 right?
22 A Right.
23 Q So if you lost the case and you had already spent
24 the $500,000 from these friends in Europe, on personal
25 things, you had no obligation to pay these people back,
0160
1 right?
2 A That's right. It's a nonrecourse loan.
3 Q And that makes sense to you --
4 A Sure.
5 Q -- that somebody would give you $500,000, with no
6 loan agreement, that you could do any way you want -- you
7 could spend it any way you want to, with no guarantee that
8 it's ever going to be paid back if you lost the case.
9 A That's right.
10 Q That made sense to you.
11 A That's right.
12 THE COURT: One thing that comes to my mind is
13 that -- how did you know or why did you think that
14 these people, who apparently had some interest in
15 this case -- that's what you told us -- would want
16 you to have this money to do whatever you wanted to
17 do with?
18 THE WITNESS: Well --
19 THE COURT: Did you ever think that maybe --
20 maybe they -- if -- if you believe that -- that they
21 had different intentions?
22 I mean, did you feel like it was okay, for a
23 half a million dollars that -- that they had given
24 to Mr. Minton, presumably for this case, it would be
25 all right for the two of you all to come to some
0161
1 other agreement?
2 Did you ever ask him, was it okay with these
3 folks that are giving this half a million dollars,
4 for me just to take it and do whatever I want to do
5 with it?
6 THE WITNESS: No, Judge. I didn't ask the
7 question.
8 And by that time, Judge, I had this -- how I
9 perceived the relationship between me and Mr. Minton
10 on money for this case for me to be such that I
11 didn't have to ask that question. I mean, my
12 perception of Mr. Minton at that time, and still is
13 today, that he dealt in this circle of people who
14 wanted to help on the case and had an enormous
15 amount of money and didn't care about spending the
16 money.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I understand that, 'cause
18 that's what you told me yesterday, that somehow or
19 another --
20 As I said, I tried to, in my own mind, envision
21 if I were involved in this case, but it's hard to
22 do, 'cause I'm not. At least not as a lawyer for
23 one side or the other.
24 This is what you said yesterday: That these
25 people, you presume, had a fear of Scientology --
0162
1 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
2 THE COURT: -- because they didn't want to be
3 known.
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 THE COURT: And that made sense to you based on
6 what you've learned about suppressive persons and
7 how you believe they were treated by the church.
8 THE WITNESS: Correct.
9 THE COURT: So these people wanted to help out,
10 you believe, with the case.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: Well, then, how do you -- how do
13 you figure that these people shouldn't be consulted
14 if it's okay for you to take $500,000, take their
15 money, and use it for something else?
16 THE WITNESS: Because it all goes to me in
17 pursuing this case.
18 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't if you're off
19 doing other things with it.
20 You and Mr. Minton had an agreement,
21 apparently, about that money. You could use it any
22 way you wanted to; that you had no obligation to use
23 it for the case.
24 THE WITNESS: Well --
25 THE COURT: You surely didn't think those folks
0163
1 just wanted to loan Ken Dandar money?
2 THE WITNESS: No. Because they -- because I
3 was the only one that was pursuing this case, and
4 they knew -- well, I don't know what they knew, but
5 Mr. Minton knew certainly, in -- when this
6 conversation took place at the end of '99, beginning
7 of 2000, that all of my time was devoted to this
8 case. I had cancelled all of these trials.
9 That he knew -- anybody would know that I had
10 to survive in order to take this to trial.
11 And it goes through a lot of expenses. And I'm
12 not going to get into what portions if any -- if
13 any --
14 THE COURT: I'm not asking you to. I'm just
15 simply saying -- you know, I'm not trying to get you
16 in trouble here, Mr. Dandar. I'm really trying to
17 see whether or not I can believe what you're saying.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right.
19 THE COURT: I really am.
20 THE WITNESS: All right.
21 THE COURT: And -- and you know, that's my role
22 in this.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: You and Mr. Minton disagree on
25 this. And he says you did know it came from him,
0164
1 you say it didn't.
2 THE WITNESS: Correct.
3 THE COURT: You say you thought it came from
4 some of his friends in Europe that had some interest
5 in funding this lawsuit.
6 But now what you've sort of changed and said is
7 that this money didn't have to be used for that.
8 I'm not going to let them go into what you used it
9 for, but I have to presume, if you didn't have to
10 use it for that, you were short on money because of
11 this case, that you had to use it for your personal
12 use.
13 Did you think that these folks had an interest
14 in that? Did you ever say to Mr. Minton, "Well, did
15 you check with them to make sure this is okay, that
16 I put this money and use it for my food and payments
17 and what have you"?
18 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't do that.
19 THE COURT: Well, you think maybe you should
20 have?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, hindsight, I should have
22 done a lot of things differently with Mr. Minton.
23 I --
24 THE COURT: You see how that causes me some
25 grave concern?
0165
1 THE WITNESS: It does.
2 THE COURT: First of all, it's amazing to me,
3 as I said to you yesterday, that a lawyer -- that
4 somebody would give you half a million dollars. I
5 mean, I just can't -- it's hard for me to imagine
6 that. Huge dollars.
7 But then to think that these same strangers,
8 who you didn't know and didn't ask about, that you
9 know of, would give you money to eat on and live on,
10 is even stranger.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, that's not exactly how that
12 conversation with Mr. Minton took place, back at the
13 beginning of 2000, end of '99, to eat on. No. It
14 was money that I could spend any way I wanted. But
15 Mr. Minton still trusted me to spend it correctly.
16 THE COURT: But --
17 THE WITNESS: But I could do whatever -- you
18 know, he gave me full discretion on how to spend the
19 money --
20 THE COURT: So you --
21 THE WITNESS: -- because of that trust.
22 THE COURT: You felt that these people gave the
23 money to Mr. Minton to do what he wanted to do with
24 it.
25 THE WITNESS: No. I felt that these people
0166
1 knew Mr. Minton quite well and would rely on him as
2 to how I would handle this money.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 THE WITNESS: I mean, I know this sounds
5 bizarre.
6 THE COURT: It sounds very bizarre.
7 THE WITNESS: The first check was bizarre
8 enough. That was bizarre.
9 THE COURT: But I mean, the money's growing.
10 We're now up from a hundred-thousand-dollar check,
11 which was bizarre enough, where you wrote the
12 Florida Bar, to a half-a-million-dollar check.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, we are.
14 THE COURT: Five times that amount. That is
15 five times as bizarre. And five times as bizarre
16 and it came from folks, you don't even know who it
17 came from, from Europe, from some country -- you
18 don't know if it's one, two, five, 10, a hundred.
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
20 THE COURT: And if Mr. Minton dropped dead of a
21 heart attack, you wouldn't have a clue. So this
22 money just obviously would then just inure to your
23 benefit.
24 THE WITNESS: No. I never, never, never
25 anticipated that --
0167
1 THE COURT: Well, you couldn't give it back to
2 him. He'd be dead.
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 THE COURT: And he wouldn't be able to tell you
5 who these people were.
6 THE WITNESS: I just --
7 THE COURT: Where were you going to give it?
8 THE WITNESS: I just -- well, it didn't --
9 honest to God, it didn't cross my mind that he -- he
10 could drop dead. That was a silly thing for me to
11 do.
12 THE COURT: Maybe it happens when you turn 60.
13 But I'll be honest with you, I think about those
14 things all the time. I'm always thinking about it.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Unfortunately, at 52, I think of
16 that as well.
17 THE COURT: Do you? Well --
18 I mean, I would have taught of that, Mr.
19 Dandar. Maybe that's because I'm 60, and you're a
20 lot younger than I. But I would have thought, "Gee,
21 if that man drops dead -- this is a lot of money.
22 This is a lot of money. I've got to know who to pay
23 this back to."
24 You had hoped to recover a substantial amount
25 of money in this lawsuit, right?
0168
1 THE WITNESS: Correct.
2 THE COURT: You had hoped to be able to pay
3 this whole 2-plus million dollars back to Mr. Minton
4 and these people.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: And -- and so obviously, if Mr. --
7 if you're to be believed -- if Mr. Minton were alive
8 and you recovered a lot of money, you'd pay back the
9 $2 million and assume that he wouldn't put it in his
10 pocket, right? I mean, after all --
11 THE WITNESS: Well --
12 THE COURT: -- if this came from these people,
13 you had some obligation to see to it they got
14 repaid.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: But it just didn't occur to you, I
17 guess you're saying, that if he dropped dead --
18 And apparently he didn't tell anybody else
19 where -- I mean, he didn't -- he -- he played
20 bizarre games with Mr. Merrett, so he wouldn't have
21 been of any help to you.
22 THE WITNESS: That's true.
23 THE COURT: He didn't tell Ms. Brooks about his
24 money because he was -- you know, she learned later.
25 So the only -- there would have been no one if
0169
1 he'd have dropped dead.
2 Where would you have sent this money? Where
3 would you have sent this half-a-million-dollar
4 check?
5 THE WITNESS: Judge, I didn't -- this did not
6 go through my mind.
7 THE COURT: Well, you know, you ought to
8 start --
9 THE WITNESS: I agree.
10 THE COURT: -- thinking about things like that.
11 THE WITNESS: I agree.
12 THE COURT: Excuse me for interrupting.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Given this what you've just described as a bizarre
15 set of circumstances in May of 2000 when you got this
16 $500,000 check, did you go back to the Florida Bar to get an
17 opinion if it was okay to take $500,000 from unknown,
18 offshore persons, with no written agreement and no strings
19 attached?
20 A No.
21 THE COURT: I think we can assume in the
22 scenario as advanced by Mr. Dandar --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
24 THE COURT: -- that at the point where
25 Mr. Minton stated to him that he could use the money
0170
1 any way he wanted to, he would have had absolutely
2 no obligation to ask the Florida Bar about anything.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
4 THE COURT: I mean, that's -- that's --
5 MR. WEINBERG: I guess there's one other
6 question I should ask.
7 THE COURT: I mean, the Florida Bar would not
8 be interested in somebody getting a loan from --
9 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I guess they -- they
10 might be --
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Well, did you -- did you tell your client that now
13 all the money that was coming from Mr. Minton, you could
14 spend it on something other than the case?
15 A I think we had the discussions several times, but
16 specifically, I don't recall -- you know, call her up and
17 say, "I just had a meeting with Mr. Minton," no, I don't
18 think that happened. Because it didn't matter. I was
19 responsible for all the costs.
20 Q But given the fact that, at the beginning, there
21 was this exchange of letters that we already went over
22 between Mr. Minton and you and you and your client; your
23 client was aware of this money that Mr. Minton was given --
24 was giving to you to fund the case, at the beginning didn't
25 you think it would have been necessary, under your
0171
1 obligations -- under the -- to -- you know, under the -- as
2 a bar member, to get her approval that was okay now -- if
3 somebody was -- if Mr. Minton continued to give you money,
4 or the money he'd already given you --
5 A No. That --
6 Q Let me --
7 A That --
8 Q Let me finish my question.
9 A Oh. It's a long question.
10 Q That you could spend it any way you want to?
11 A No.
12 As I said -- this is asked and answered before --
13 but I've confirmed that recently with the bar. They have no
14 interest in my personal loans.
15 Q Now, you said yesterday that it made no difference
16 to you how Mr. Minton paid you, whether it was a Swiss check
17 or cash or a regular check, right? Something to that
18 effect.
19 A Right.
20 Q But did you hide the fact of receiving this
21 $500,000 check and ultimately the $250,000 check from people
22 like your trial consultant, Dr. Garko?
23 THE COURT: That, he's explained too. He
24 doesn't call it hiding; he just didn't discuss his
25 finances with those people.
0172
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q You didn't disclose that fact to your staff.
3 A I never do.
4 Q And you didn't disclose to them that there was any
5 new deal -- new deal with Mr. Minton, where you could spend
6 whatever money Mr. Minton gave you -- 'cause they knew that
7 you were getting money from -- from Mr. Minton -- any way
8 you wanted to.
9 A I don't discuss these things with anyone --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- on my staff.
12 Q Fast forward.
13 Then in March of 2002, Mr. Minton gave you -- sent
14 you in the mail, a $250,000 UBS check, right?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And I heard you say yesterday -- I hadn't heard
17 this before, but you said that Mr. Minton said that, you
18 needed to deposit it quickly because the fat man or the --
19 the fat man was nervous about it?
20 A Yeah. There was something going on in the Swiss
21 banks, where this person was.
22 Q And did it concern you, Mr. Dandar, that that
23 money might be dirty money?
24 A No. There was something, he believed, from this
25 person, that you, your client, was doing something in the
0173
1 Swiss banks. And he wouldn't elaborate on what that was.
2 But he thought it was something from the court. And I told
3 him there was nothing, as far as I knew, that came from the
4 court to cause the Swiss banks to do anything. I don't even
5 know the identity of the Swiss banks.
6 Q All right. And this money was under the same
7 arrangement as the $500,000. You could do with it what you
8 wanted to.
9 A Correct.
10 Q No loan with these people over in Europe -- no
11 loan agreements. Just like the $500,000.
12 A That's right.
13 THE COURT: Remember what I've -- what I've
14 said before, I'm not sure that this 250,000 is
15 relevant. You're going to have to persuade me in
16 your brief that somehow it is. This was after all
17 these allegations, all --
18 MR. WEINBERG: It's relevant to his
19 credibility.
20 THE COURT: It may be relevant to his
21 credibility --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
23 THE COURT: -- but it's not relevant to any
24 allegation of perjury --
25 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. No, it's not.
0174
1 THE COURT: -- or --
2 MR. WEINBERG: It's relevant to his
3 credibility.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q And a -- and --
6 THE COURT: And I would agree with that.
7 But it's not relevant to the issues as far as
8 perjury, suborning perjury and that sort --
9 MR. WEINBERG: It doesn't -- it was -- it
10 was -- you know --
11 THE COURT: Right.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- after the fact --
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- so to speak.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q But -- and you did --
17 I mean, did you think that it would have been
18 appropriate, particularly in light of the fact that
19 Mr. Minton said that -- that they were nervous about this,
20 to go to the Florida Bar at that point and say, "Is there a
21 problem about taking money like this from offshore, when I
22 don't know who it's from, and they're nervous about it?"
23 A No.
24 Because -- you know, this is not offshore money,
25 by the way. This check comes from Chase Manhattan Bank in
0175
1 New York, from the UBS bank in Switzerland. These are
2 reputable banks. This is not some Antigua bank --
3 Q Well, excuse --
4 A These are not -- these are reputable banks. I'm
5 not worried --
6 And it's not offshore money. It's a New York --
7 it came from a New York City bank.
8 Q Oh, I -- I'm sorry. I was under the impression
9 that -- that you were saying that this came from people in
10 Europe.
11 A I'm talking about the check.
12 (A discussion was held off the record.)
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q If that's -- if that's the case, then what was
15 Mr. Minton nervous about the Swiss banks, that you said,
16 that it wasn't offshore money?
17 A He wouldn't tell me. He wouldn't go into any
18 detail other than what I just told you.
19 Q Well, you knew that there was a subpoena -- at
20 this time, in March of '90 -- I'm sorry -- March of 2002,
21 you were aware that the Church of Scientology in this case
22 had already subpoenaed the -- is it Dresdner Bank --
23 Dresdner Bank -- Dresdner Bank -- for Mr. Minton's --
24 seeking Mr. Minton's records in Swiss -- Switz --
25 Switzerland, right?
0176
1 A No. In the fall of 2002, I believe you subpoenaed
2 Dresdner Bank in Los Angeles. And I don't even know who
3 Dresdner Bank is, and not even to this day.
4 THE COURT: Had the church subpoenaed
5 Mr. Minton's records from Switzerland?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No. From the Dresdner -- from
7 the bank in -- in L.A.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Seeking the --
10 THE COURT: Well, you said Switzerland.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's a Swiss bank as I
12 understand it.
13 THE COURT: Oh.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I think.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q It's a Swiss bank, isn't it?
17 A I don't know. I know it's in Los Angeles, so --
18 Q But you didn't connect the dots at that point, in
19 March of 2002, that this person that was -- that Mr. Minton
20 was talking about, this fat man that was nervous -- you
21 didn't connect the dots that that -- that person was
22 Mr. Minton.
23 A No. Not at all.
24 Q And as before, you thought that there were people
25 in Europe, some -- I guess one person in Europe, some fat
0177
1 guy, that -- that was willing to give you $250,000, without
2 you knowing who he was, with no loan agreement, that you
3 could use personally if you wanted to.
4 A That's right.
5 That was the first time -- that New Hampshire trip
6 was the first time, I believe, that Mr. Minton ever came up
7 with the name the fat man.
8 THE COURT: But you thought that this was still
9 from these friends in Europe, didn't you?
10 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. I mean, that's what he
11 told me. I mean, he told me in front of Dr. Garko,
12 as I said yesterday, in a very straight, forceful
13 voice, that he had no more money for me.
14 THE COURT: So -- you know, I hate to be -- I
15 just hate to inquire here, but Mr. Minton is -- you
16 know, I can say that because I'm a heavyset woman.
17 I'm a fat lady.
18 Mr. Minton's an overweight man, right?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: Yeah.
21 So you know -- we have -- I mean, I might call
22 myself a fat -- fat girl. I say it sometimes.
23 It didn't even occur to you that he was
24 talking -- when he says, "This money comes from
25 friends in Europe," that's kind of a plural. Then
0178
1 all of a sudden he's saying, "Well, if you -- if you
2 make -- if you make me not being so hated on the
3 Internet because I'm not funding this case," which
4 is what Ms. Greenway apparently was doing, " -- if
5 you take care of that, then the fat man will give
6 you money."
7 That -- the person he wanted taken care of was
8 himself, right? On the Internet.
9 THE WITNESS: Right.
10 THE COURT: And he's over -- an overweight guy,
11 right?
12 THE WITNESS: Right.
13 THE COURT: And so he then says, "If you take
14 care of me on that Internet, maybe the fat man will
15 have some more money for you."
16 And you're on the telephone to him, saying,
17 "Send me the money. Where is the money? I don't
18 have the money yet," or writing back and forth to
19 him. And yet it still doesn't occur to you that
20 money was from Mr. Minton, is what your testimony
21 under oath is.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, Judge. A hundred
23 percent.
24 I mean, you had to be there at that New
25 Hampshire -- his house, on the way he explained
0179
1 that, and the way he explained that these -- this
2 person in Europe was upset because he didn't want to
3 get attacked if his name ever came out, and you
4 know, he wanted Mr. Minton --
5 Mr. Minton apparently couldn't persuade him to
6 send me the money unless Mr. Minton was happy with
7 me.
8 THE COURT: So you thought this was a singular
9 friend in Europe.
10 THE WITNESS: Because he called him the fat
11 man.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: And you know, I knew -- tried to
14 get out of him who --
15 THE COURT: But you thought that this guy, this
16 fat man, this unknown person in Europe, cared about
17 Mr. Minton being attacked on the Internet.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, it was actually the other
19 way around. It was Mr. Minton would not persuade
20 this person to do this unless Mr. Minton was happy
21 with -- the attacks went away.
22 Ms. Greenway, by the way, was not the person on
23 the Internet attacking him.
24 THE COURT: Well, he thought it was
25 Ms. Greenway.
0180
1 THE WITNESS: Oh, he thinks Ms. Greenway --
2 Stacy Brooks thinks Ms. Greenway is the --
3 THE COURT: Right.
4 THE WITNESS: -- epicenter of all his problems.
5 THE COURT: But he thought it was Ms. Greenway.
6 THE WITNESS: He did, yes.
7 THE COURT: Whoever it was, he knew you -- you
8 could stop -- he thought you could stop it.
9 THE WITNESS: He thought I could -- well, he
10 thought I could persuade them to stop it --
11 THE COURT: Right.
12 THE WITNESS: -- in order to get funding.
13 THE COURT: And in fact, that happened.
14 THE WITNESS: It did happen, 'cause I -- I went
15 out and I said, "Please stop this."
16 THE COURT: "Please stop." Right.
17 And so it stopped. And then this -- this
18 fellow in Europe was so pleased that this attack
19 against Mr. Minton had stopped that he sends you a
20 quarter of a million dollars.
21 THE WITNESS: According to Mr. Minton, that's
22 right.
23 THE COURT: And it didn't --
24 THE WITNESS: And all the attacks were --
25 THE COURT: And it didn't sound unusual to you.
0181
1 THE WITNESS: Of course --
2 THE COURT: You had no reason to think, "Gee,
3 Mr. Minton might be the source of this money."
4 THE WITNESS: No. Mr. Minton was the person
5 who could persuade this person to send the money.
6 THE COURT: You realize how silly this sounds?
7 I mean --
8 THE WITNESS: Well --
9 THE COURT: It's -- it's -- I mean --
10 THE WITNESS: It's --
11 THE COURT: -- silly --
12 Are you that naive?
13 THE WITNESS: No. It sounds extremely silly as
14 we talk about it like this.
15 But at the time this was all going on, you
16 know, the problems with the Swiss banks didn't make
17 any sense to me because there's nothing coming from
18 this court, so I didn't know what he was talking
19 about on the phone.
20 THE COURT: Well, you -- you do know why folks
21 use Swiss bank accounts sometimes. It could be for
22 very legitimate reasons and it can be for
23 illegitimate reasons. I mean, it can be you're
24 trying to hide your money from your spouse, the
25 government; it can be that you just don't want to
0182
1 put all your money in this country -- there's --
2 But there -- there are reasons why some folks
3 use a Swiss account, that we would all know would be
4 hiding our money.
5 THE WITNESS: You're right.
6 And -- and you just mentioned keep it from your
7 spouse. I mean, that was another thing that drove
8 Mr. Minton crazy, was that Mr. Moxon had set
9 Mrs. Minton for deposition, I believe, in April of
10 this year, and that caused him a great concern,
11 because apparently his wife isn't -- doesn't know
12 what's going on in this case or what he does with
13 his money or something. I'm not sure. I mean, that
14 just made him go crazy.
15 And then the Swiss bank things were happening;
16 the Nigerian thing was happening again --
17 THE COURT: If I'm to believe you, Mr. Dandar,
18 on this aspect of your testimony, I must believe
19 that you were that naive that you couldn't figure
20 this out.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, Judge, I didn't try to
22 figure out the March check. I mean, he -- I had
23 already received the check, back in May of 2000, on
24 this UBS bank check. And you know, it wasn't funny
25 money, as far as I was concerned.
0183
1 THE COURT: Sure wasn't. It's a lot of money.
2 THE WITNESS: It was a lot of money.
3 But at that time, I had already received over a
4 million dollars, so it's just like, these people
5 have a lot of money and they really care about this
6 case.
7 THE COURT: And they all got together
8 collectively and put some money in a Swiss bank to
9 send to you anonymously.
10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 And it's not as farfetched as you think.
12 THE COURT: Through Mr. Minton.
13 THE WITNESS: That's right.
14 In fact -- I'm not going to get into any
15 details, but there are people out there trying to do
16 that right now.
17 THE COURT: Well, I do hope that you find out
18 who they are so that you can repay them if they want
19 their money back.
20 THE WITNESS: I will. But it most likely will
21 be a point person who I'll have to respond with.
22 Because these people do not want Scientology to know
23 who they are. And we already went through that
24 yesterday.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
0184
1 THE WITNESS: In fact, I -- I do have
2 affidavits from my former clients, who were
3 interviewed extensively by investigators from
4 Scientology --
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 THE WITNESS: -- about accusing me of all kinds
7 of crimes.
8 THE COURT: Is it time for a morning break?
9 MR. WEINBERG: We can. I have a few more --
10 THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take it.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
12 THE COURT: Let's take about 15 minutes.
13 (A recess was taken at 10:38 a.m.)
14 (The proceedings were resumed at 11:00 a.m.)
15 THE COURT: You may continue.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q As you sit here today, Mr. Dandar, you have no
18 idea who the fat man is?
19 A Well, Mr. Minton says it's him.
20 Can I say that under oath? No.
21 Q And as you sit here today, you don't know who
22 you're supposed to pay back the $250,000?
23 A From March, 2002?
24 Q Yes.
25 A That's correct.
0185
1 Q And if Mr. Minton asks you for the money back,
2 will you pay him?
3 A After I deduct my damages for what he's done to
4 me, sure.
5 Q Now, how did you think that Mr. Minton was able to
6 obtain -- to get a copy of the check, both the $500,000 and
7 the $250,000 check, if he wasn't the one who arranged for
8 it?
9 A Scientology got it first.
10 Q Oh, that's what you believe?
11 A I believe that a hundred percent.
12 Q So you think that -- that the Church of
13 Scientology was able to get this check, that didn't have
14 Mr. Minton's name on it, but that Mr. Minton, who arranged
15 for it and who gave them to you, couldn't.
16 A Mr. Minton could not get it because he didn't
17 commit a criminal act to get it. Scientology got it. And
18 it doesn't surprise me that Scientology got it. And that's
19 what caused Mr. Minton to turn and lie for you.
20 Q All right. And you -- you obviously have the
21 evidence to indicate that the Church of Scientology was
22 the -- was the -- was the one that got these checks, not
23 Mr. Minton.
24 A Well, I have the -- I have the testimony of
25 Mr. Prince indicating that to me. I have Mr. Minton telling
0186
1 me in vague terms that something was going on in the Swiss
2 banks, and the -- and then I have the -- Mr. Pope cancelling
3 the UBS deposition to get the checks, telling me he didn't
4 have the checks. And I called up the UBS bank and said,
5 "Did you give them the checks? Why did they cancel your
6 deposition?" He said, "No --" the attorney for the bank
7 said, "No. We didn't give Mr. Pope the check." And then
8 Mr. Pope has the check.
9 So I find that a confirmation that your client
10 committed another criminal act and got the two UBS checks.
11 Q And you remember the $500,000 UBS check that
12 Mr. Minton identified and gave to Ms. Greenway and
13 Mr. Alexander for his part in The Profit?
14 A I remember the testimony.
15 Q Do you remember those?
16 A I remember the testimony.
17 Q Do you remember the check?
18 A I've seen in it this courtroom.
19 Q And did that -- and did that -- that -- does that
20 indicate to you, if Mr. Minton was able to produce and did
21 produce a $500,000 UBS check to Ms. Greenway and
22 Mr. Alexander as their part -- as part of the payments on --
23 the schedule of payments on The Profit, that he is the one
24 that -- that -- that caused the $250,000 and $500,000 checks
25 to you, from his accounts, to be issued?
0187
1 A No. Because there's a difference. And that
2 difference is that Ms. Brooks -- and I call into question
3 how much she knew about the fat man -- Ms. Brooks is the one
4 that hand-delivered that check to Mr. (sic) Greenway, so
5 Ms. Brooks could have copied that, and probably did copy
6 that, before she gave it to Mr. Alexander.
7 Q So you think that the fat man or these people in
8 Europe, unidentified, also financed The Profit as well?
9 A I have no idea. I don't know if they used the fat
10 man for the -- to explain the movie deal. I had nothing to
11 do with the movie deal. I mean, I don't know what their --
12 they said back and forth to each other.
13 Q Now, we talked about --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Just to clarify things, your
15 Honor, we -- you had asked or I had said something
16 about the Dresdner Bank, and I now have the records
17 to indicate exactly what happened. And I was either
18 going to tell you or go over that with Mr. --
19 THE COURT: I believe it was you that said it
20 was the Dresdner Bank of Switzerland, so if it's not
21 the Swiss bank, then that's fine.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Well, what -- what -- do you remember that what
24 happened -- I can show you these records -- is that
25 Ms. Brooks --
0188
1 THE COURT: You don't have to put this in this
2 record. It was your misstatement, apparently.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, no. It's not a
4 misstatement.
5 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: It's not a misstatement.
7 THE COURT: So it was a Swiss bank.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. It is a Swiss bank.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: But what happened was --
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Do you remember that Ms. Brooks, in an August
13 deposition, identified a $500,000 payment or transfer of
14 check that the LMT had received earlier? You remember that?
15 A I think it was a wire transfer --
16 Q Right.
17 A -- as she said in her deposition.
18 Q And then the -- then the church set the deposition
19 of Bank of America in December of 2001 to get the -- to get
20 records with regard to the LMT, concerning that transfer.
21 Do you remember that?
22 A I don't remember the date, but I remember them
23 getting the Bank of America account.
24 Q Right.
25 And that from the Bank of American -- from the
0189
1 Bank of America account of the LMT, there was a -- a -- a
2 wire transfer document that indicated a $500,000 -- it's
3 499,988 -- wire transfer on or about March 19th, 2001 to the
4 LMT from the Dresdner Bank, AG branch. Do you remember
5 that?
6 A If you say so.
7 THE COURT: That's a different Swiss bank than
8 the one the 500,000 and the 250 came from, right?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q But AG means Switzerland, right?
13 A I don't know.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I've marked, your Honor, as
15 169 --
16 THE COURT: You're going to have to tell me
17 this, because I do not know the answer to this. AG
18 means Switzerland?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
20 THE COURT: What does it mean? What is AG?
21 MR. LIROT: I thought it meant "silver."
22 THE COURT: Well, I don't know --
23 MR. WEINBERG: It's -- it's the nomenclature
24 that is used -- in -- I think, in Switzerland, with
25 regard to certain corporations.
0190
1 MR. MOXON: It means incorporated. It's used
2 in Switzerland and Germany. "Inc." would be the
3 United States.
4 THE COURT: Did you know that, Mr. Dandar?
5 THE WITNESS: No. I never knew that.
6 A You know, this is from the Internet site. How --
7 what is this --
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q This is the document that was produced at the Bank
10 of America depo --
11 A Okay.
12 Q -- all right?
13 A I don't -- I don't know. I wasn't there, so --
14 Q Right.
15 And what it shows is -- just so we can go over
16 this -- a 500 -- or 499,988 wire transfer --
17 THE COURT: If he doesn't know anything about
18 it, there's no point in going over it.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he was --
20 THE COURT: He said he wasn't there. He
21 doesn't know anything about it.
22 MR. WEINBERG: He was at the depo.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. It was a depo
24 that I thought did not involve me, but --
25
0191
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q In any event --
3 THE WITNESS: Come to find out, it did.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q In any event, what occurred after that,
6 Mr. Dandar, was that the church in this case filed a motion
7 for commission for deposition in a foreign state, filed the
8 motion on February 14th, 2002, seeking permission to
9 subpoena the Dresdner Bank AG with regard to payments by
10 Mr. Minton to LMT.
11 A I find it curious that you didn't pursue that
12 deposition.
13 Q Well --
14 A It was all set up and you didn't pursue it.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Mark this, please, as the next
16 exhibit.
17 THE CLERK: 270.
18 A So I would add that onto my list of more
19 confirmation that you had the checks already.
20 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar objected to
21 that, and we agreed to taking it off. And he made
22 an objection. It was just during the whole time --
23 THE COURT: Well, I don't know why it was taken
24 off.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, so we --
0192
1 MR. MOXON: He's not testifying now. He's
2 making comments. So I'm just trying to correct;
3 that we had a hearing and he objected --
4 THE COURT: No. I believe he's testifying that
5 that is, in his mind, another aspect of why he
6 believes that you all had the check first, and that
7 that's why Mr. Minton changed his testimony. That's
8 what he's testified to. And he's saying this
9 doesn't change his mind at all; that is more
10 confirmation.
11 Now --
12 MR. WEINBERG: That's 270.
13 THE COURT: -- that's what he's testifying to.
14 MR. WEINBERG: And this is 271, which is the
15 commission that was issued.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Now, so what you're saying is -- is that as of
18 February 14th, 2002, you believe that the church had a copy
19 of the $500,000 check?
20 THE COURT: This check is not even the same
21 check we're talking about.
22 MR. WEINBERG: No. It's a totally different
23 check.
24 THE COURT: Right. So yes, he's saying that.
25 That's what he said. That's what he said before.
0193
1 Please don't --
2 And this has nothing -- no bearing on that.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm just clarifying the
4 record.
5 THE COURT: You're clarifying the record with a
6 $500,000 check from one Swiss bank that has nothing
7 to do with another Swiss bank check, is what
8 Mr. Dandar's talking about. So you really can't
9 clarify the record.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No. The point -- the point
11 was -- is that when Mr. Minton said that he was
12 nervous or the person in Europe was nervous, what
13 was going on just before that is that there was this
14 motion that was filed in order to attempt to get
15 records from the Dresdner Bank. And what we asked
16 for was the Dresdner Bank, L.A. branch, you'll see
17 in this motion, because we didn't have any ability
18 to go to Switzerland.
19 But -- but --
20 And then there was an objection to that.
21 So the point that we were making, to clarify
22 the record, is that there would be a reason, and
23 Mr. Dandar knew it, for Mr. Minton to be nervous.
24 THE COURT: I see.
25 THE WITNESS: And --
0194
1 THE COURT: Well, of course, we also know from
2 this record that Mr. Minton was most aggravated that
3 Stacy Brooks had ever told you all anything about
4 the Swiss bank --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
6 THE COURT: -- right?
7 I mean, he was beside himself --
8 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
9 THE COURT: -- in -- in irritation with Stacy
10 Brooks.
11 And I guess this is -- this is what that's all
12 about, right?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
14 THE COURT: Because this is the check that went
15 to LMT.
16 MR. WEINBERG: This is a wire transfer that
17 went to LMT.
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: That, pursuant to discovery, we
20 obtained.
21 THE WITNESS: Judge, I can't -- and you said
22 something -- I need to maybe correct you or just
23 bring to your attention -- that I -- none of us know
24 if the Dresdner Bank is one of the sources --
25 THE COURT: Oh.
0195
1 THE WITNESS: -- that he used for the UBS
2 check.
3 THE COURT: That's right. Okay. Because he
4 took the Fifth Amendment on the source.
5 THE WITNESS: On all that. Yes.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q Right now I've put in front of you --
8 THE COURT: See, that's where I don't
9 understand enough.
10 In other words, the money that goes for the UBS
11 check comes from a -- some bank.
12 THE WITNESS: Right.
1