IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 1
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG NANCY MANY
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: July 12, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 1, Page 2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff
5
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
8
9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
10 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
11 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
12
MR. LEE FUGATE and
13 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
14 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
15 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization
16
17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
18 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
19 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: You may be seated.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: We're just trying to get
4 Mr. Weinberg in.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 (Mr. Weinberg entered.)
7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
8 THE COURT: That's all right.
9 Okay. I have the four packages of
10 information that I was given. I made notes on all of
11 it. This one says, on the outset -- I can't tell
12 whose writing this is. It may be -- it may be
13 Mr. McGowan's.
14 But anyway, one of them says 7/9/02,
15 Attorneys Dandar and Merrett, and Greenway. However,
16 here is my note of last night: I don't know why these
17 are listed in this way; no Greenway in here or
18 attorneys' stuff -- or, legal. It is letters, e-mail
19 from LMT -- to LMT from outsiders, non-witnesses, and
20 some returns. One is a weekly update from Mr. Prince
21 to Bob Minton on persons they were working for and
22 cases they were working on. None were witnesses in
23 this case. Clearly non-discovery e-mails.
24 So I have no idea what -- why he raised it,
25 why he's raised it.
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1 MR. DANDAR: That should be destroyed or
2 returned.
3 THE COURT: It will be returned.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Destroyed?
5 THE COURT: Or it will be sealed if you all
6 would like.
7 MR. WEINBERG: It's the LMT's records.
8 THE COURT: I don't care whose it is. These
9 are people that have written to LMT. There's not a
10 witness in there.
11 MR. WEINBERG: No, Mr. Dandar said destroy
12 them. They should be returned --
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- to LMT.
15 THE COURT: I've got "Return to McGowan."
16 MR. DANDAR: I thought they were just copies
17 of originals. If they're originals, yes, return them.
18 THE COURT: I don't know what they are. I
19 presume --
20 MR. DANDAR: Sure.
21 THE COURT: -- they were copies to me. But
22 there's no reason to have these --
23 MR. DANDAR: No.
24 THE COURT: -- in the court file sealed all
25 up. I'm going to return these to Mr. McGowan.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 This is one that does say "Dandar and
2 Greenway, privileges asserted by the Estate." So I
3 suspect they put that kind of on both envelopes.
4 Anyway, I wrote: "Received and found one
5 attorney-consultant document, which I gave back to
6 McGowan. The rest I copied and gave to each side.
7 One was a duplicate of another already provided. It
8 was destroyed by Greenway," which is one -- it's a
9 page. I gave it to you like two times, but it's a
10 third time. It's just a duplicate.
11 That's why I assume that's all right.
12 Nobody needs three copies of the same thing.
13 MR. DANDAR: Don't need three copies.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Also found one that had a
15 Greenway/Minton message, that it was unrelated, very
16 short. I returned it because it had -- the length --
17 the big one was a non-discoverable letter from an
18 outsider to LMT, but it would be non-discoverable.
19 This Greenway/Minton message was irrelevant to the
20 proceeding.
21 Then I have this Minton attorney-client
22 privilege. These are the ones I told you about
23 yesterday. "I reviewed the enclosed e-mail.
24 Returned. They're covered by attorney-client
25 privilege. Both sides agreed I could return to
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1 McGowan yesterday."
2 And this is the packet that has got the
3 attorney bills in it and also the one big declaration
4 of Stacy Brooks --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Stacy Brooks.
6 THE COURT: -- that's already in evidence.
7 So now I've been through all the e-mails
8 that were provided to me. Mrs. Rudd is making copies
9 this morning. Frankly, in the packet of stuff that
10 I'm providing, there are Greenway e-mails.
11 They would have nothing to do with any
12 consulting she might be doing for you. So -- and
13 she's apparently someone that's being listed as a
14 witness, potential witness, something or other, so I'm
15 going to provide it.
16 MR. DANDAR: Patricia Greenway is not a
17 witness.
18 THE COURT: I don't care if she is. If she
19 is, those are going to be provided. There's no reason
20 not to provide them. She is a -- she is a principal
21 on a movie that is the subject of this hearing. If
22 for no other reason than that, based on all the orders
23 that were entered in this case, they're going to be
24 turned over.
25 So you'll get your copy. If you want to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 object, you can. If you can convince me that it's a
2 valid objection, I'll ask for them to be returned.
3 MR. DANDAR: You mentioned this the other
4 day, the First Amendment right to privacy, individuals
5 who are not witnesses in this case on subject matters
6 that have nothing to do with this case --
7 THE COURT: Quite frankly, these are very
8 critical letters of Ms. Greenway, where they're
9 talking about problems that she's caused in LMT and
10 why Mr. Minton is mad at her, and these are her
11 responses to those. They're not -- they were copied
12 to everybody under the sun.
13 MR. DANDAR: Oh, well, if they're copied,
14 that's different.
15 THE COURT: I mean, this is -- I don't even
16 know who the person was that did the gossip letter.
17 There's a big gossip letter in there about things
18 Patricia Greenway said to them. Whoever that is is
19 ratting on Patricia Greenway. And there's this big
20 response from somebody in LMT as to each thing and how
21 untrue it is. Then there's a response from Patricia
22 Greenway.
23 It is not, by any stretch of the
24 imagination, private. And because she has been, you
25 know, a principal in the movie, it's just easier to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 give them. You'll get your copy if you want.
2 There is one in there -- I can't think what
3 it was. There was one in there from Teresa Summers to
4 you or you to Teresa Summers. I can't read the
5 headings. These headings get so long and confused; I
6 don't know who is who. Something about you can have
7 the books, they're -- mixed in the library or
8 something. I gave it rather than not.
9 MR. DANDAR: I don't care about -- that's
10 not privileged.
11 Judge, I have a witness that we announced
12 yesterday, Nancy Many, in court. I'm asking the Court
13 to permit me to put her on out of turn right now at
14 9 o'clock. She flew in. She's out of state. She's
15 in the middle of a college course. She needs to be
16 back. She doesn't want to take the risk that
17 Mr. Oliver may run over and then she won't be able to
18 leave today and go back.
19 THE COURT: I have no problem with --
20 MR. WEINBERG: But I do have a problem
21 with --
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- it, your Honor. This case
24 has been going on, as you know, since 1997. The first
25 time we heard this name was last night at whatever
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 time it was, 4:00, 4:30. That's the first time.
2 We -- I can't say that I can be through with
3 her. I don't know who she is. If she has something
4 relevant to say about this case, she should have been
5 disclosed in discovery years ago. Years ago. I mean,
6 we're in the middle of Mr. Oliver. That's what I've
7 been preparing for. I mean, we should --
8 THE COURT: I could care less about that,
9 Counselor. I've given everybody the privilege to call
10 witnesses out of turn if there's some reason for it.
11 I don't know what she has to say either.
12 This is -- I gather she has nothing to say relevant to
13 the case; she has something relevant to this motion.
14 If she doesn't, why, we'll exclude her. If she
15 does --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Dandar told me she was
17 going to testify yesterday afternoon about an
18 introspection rundown. Now, if that's the case,
19 leaving everything else aside, that should have been
20 disclosed years ago.
21 And if he'd been in communication with
22 her -- because he told me he had this secret
23 witness -- he could have arranged it for a time where
24 she could come in, you know, at a convenient time, you
25 know, with appropriate notice to counsel so that we
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 could get prepared.
2 Yesterday afternoon, at 4 o'clock or
3 whatever time it was, for the first time he mentioned
4 the name of this, quote, secret witness that he's been
5 talking about for a number of days now. It's baloney.
6 MR. DANDAR: This -- I abided by the Court's
7 instructions yesterday after court to provide them
8 with the name of the witness I'm going to call the
9 next day. I did that.
10 THE COURT: I don't know of any requirement
11 under the rule that requires a witness to a motion be
12 listed ever. So your objection is overruled.
13 Let's go.
14 Here are these e-mails.
15 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have a very brief
16 motion --
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 MR. MOXON: -- if I may. I provided this to
19 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot. And the reason I'm bringing
20 it up now is because it concerns Mr. Jacobsen and some
21 additional --
22 THE COURT: Who is Mr. Jacobsen?
23 MR. MOXON: Mr. Jacobsen is one of the
24 employees of LMT. You may recall on the videotapes
25 outside of LMT where it had people walking out with
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 the files, with the boxes?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. MOXON: Mr. Jacobsen was the main person
4 that was shown, along with Dee Phillips, in those
5 videos. And he's been an employee of LMT since, I
6 believe, January of 2000. He and Mr. Bunker shared
7 the video responsibilities at LMT. In fact, I think
8 he probably did more videos than anyone else.
9 I'll let you read those.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 Okay. All this is, is a request for an
12 out-of-state commission to take his deposition. Is
13 that it?
14 MR. MOXON: That's right. We understand he
15 lives in Arizona.
16 THE COURT: Did he -- I, of course, don't
17 even know who he is, so I don't know what he did on
18 the videos. Was he putting the boxes in somebody
19 else's car?
20 MR. MOXON: I think he was putting some in
21 his car, and he was definitely putting some in
22 Ms. Phillip's car. But it's the videos, is what I'm
23 more interested in. He may have some paper records.
24 But definitely he's been -- for the past two and a
25 half years, he's been making videos while an employee
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 of LMT.
2 I spoke to Mr. McGowan yesterday and asked
3 him why Mr. Jacobsen's videos were not produced along
4 with the other LMT videos. And he told me that he had
5 contacted Mr. Jacobsen. Mr. Jacobsen says he no
6 longer works for LMT. And as far as he's concerned,
7 the videos that he took while he was at LMT are his
8 own property, and so he wouldn't produce them pursuant
9 to the Court's orders.
10 So I'm simply asking for an out-of-state
11 commission so we can take his deposition so we can
12 explore that issue. If he's got some further
13 evidence, then obviously we'll try to get ahold of it
14 relative to this hearing and the counterclaim.
15 I talked to Mr. Dandar before this, and he
16 said if we can arrange it, if he's willing to, we'll
17 pay to have him to come out here for his deposition.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MR. DANDAR: I have a telephone number for
20 him. I've been in contact with him. But I believe
21 way back, years ago, he did some work for me on this
22 case, so I would want that protected. I just can't
23 remember what it was right now.
24 And Mr. Jacobsen, I think from the testimony
25 you heard, is the one that called to the attention of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 the Clearwater police department or the Tampa Tribune
2 the death of Lisa McPherson, and that's when it became
3 a PR flap, a year after her death. That's when things
4 started appearing in the newspaper.
5 But Mr. Jacobsen, I'm sure -- I have no
6 control over him, but I'm sure he will cooperate, of
7 course, with the subpoena of the Court.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: But there's a list on there --
10 there's a search list, same search for Mr. McKeane,
11 and we have agreed --
12 THE COURT: Mr. who?
13 MR. DANDAR: King, I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: Not McKeane.
15 MR. DANDAR: King, I'm sorry. We had agreed
16 that the six individuals, which include myself and my
17 brother, will be sealed and delivered to the Court
18 this -- under the same order of the Court that went to
19 Mr. King. That's correct. We've agreed to that.
20 THE COURT: All right. Then I have no
21 problem with this. Might as well sign it.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I just want to
23 correct Mr. Dandar again. Mr. Jacobsen is not the
24 person that called the matter to the attention of the
25 Clearwater police a year later. The Clearwater police
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 investigation began immediately. Once again, a
2 misstatement.
3 MR. DANDAR: We'll let Mr. Jacobsen tell us
4 that under oath then, how that happened. I'll stand
5 corrected --
6 THE COURT: You folks don't agree on
7 anything, so I don't need to hear it today. That's
8 fine. You had your say and he had his say.
9 MR. MOXON: If I may, your Honor, I'll take
10 that to your judicial assistant and I'll have copies
11 made so I can get it out to Arizona.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. DANDAR: And --
14 THE COURT: Did you all get the e-mails that
15 I just handed out?
16 MR. DANDAR: I did.
17 MR. MOXON: I didn't.
18 THE COURT: Well, I handed out -- this is my
19 copy.
20 MR. MOXON: I didn't get a copy.
21 MR. FUGATE: I don't think so.
22 THE COURT: Well, I just handed them out.
23 MR. MOXON: Just a second.
24 MR. DANDAR: Do we have more than one?
25 MR. PRINCE: Yes, we do.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: Wasn't I up here doing this?
2 Did I hand them all to one side?
3 MR. DANDAR: We had duplicates.
4 THE COURT: Okay. There's yours.
5 MR. FUGATE: And, Judge, I put the
6 transcripts from the 10th in your transcript binder on
7 the far left.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. DANDAR: This morning, we started off on
10 a bad note when Mr. Weinberg called our witness,
11 Mr. Oliver, a punk while Mr. Oliver was in the
12 courtroom, and I ask Mr. Weinberg to apologize for
13 that remark.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I was discussing it with you.
15 THE COURT: Pardon me?
16 MR. WEINBERG: I was discussing the matter
17 with Mr. Dandar. I did not know that Mr. Oliver was
18 in the room.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Now, although I do see
21 Mr. Oliver in the room now, if he's not going to be
22 testifying, he needs to leave.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Oliver, will you --
24 I'm not going to make a witness [sic]
25 apologize. However, lawyers have to be real careful
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 about what they say about people when they're present.
2 Mr. Oliver, if you would step outside until
3 such time as we take this witness out of order.
4 MR. OLIVER: Thank you.
5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. The plaintiff calls
6 Nancy Many.
7 THE COURT: What's her name again?
8 MR. DANDAR: Many, M-a-n-y.
9 (The Court swore in the witness.)
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: You may lower your hand.
12 THE BAILIFF: Step this way. Watch your
13 step. Speak loud and clear for the Court.
14 THE COURT: You may proceed.
15 NANCY MANY
16 being first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and
17 testified as follows:
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Please state your full name and spell your last
21 name.
22 A Nancy Many, M-a-n-y.
23 Q And currently you're a resident of what state?
24 A California.
25 Q Okay. And at what point in time did you make a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 decision that you would testify in this case?
2 A Pretty much decided Saturday morning, but didn't
3 actually tell you until Sunday.
4 Q Okay. What is -- what is your date of birth?
5 A 12/10/52.
6 Q And what is the extent of your education?
7 A Scientology or regular?
8 Q Regular.
9 A Well, I'm back to college now. I had two years
10 before I joined Scientology.
11 Q Okay. And when did you join the Church of
12 Scientology?
13 A 1972.
14 Q Okay.
15 A January of '72.
16 Q And did you join it as a public member or a staff
17 or something else?
18 A Pretty much joined the Sea Organization within a
19 month.
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
21 THE WITNESS: I joined the Sea Organization
22 within a month.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Okay. And in doing so, did you sign the Sea Org
25 contract?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 A Yep.
2 Q Okay. Is there anyone in particular who asked
3 you or persuaded you to join the Sea Org?
4 A Bill Franks.
5 Q And that was up in Boston?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. And how long were you a Sea Org member?
8 A Until December 1982, so pretty much almost ten
9 years.
10 Q Okay. What organizations did you work with as a
11 Sea Org member?
12 A I worked at Boston FOLO, which is like a relay
13 office for Eastern United States in New York. I worked at
14 Flag, which is here in Clearwater. I worked in the
15 international management section.
16 Q What was your highest position in -- as a Sea Org
17 member?
18 A Commodore's staff aide for Division 6.
19 Q What were your responsibilities?
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was that
21 position again?
22 THE WITNESS: Commodore staff aide for
23 Division 6. I was LRH's assistant for international
24 marketing and expansion of Scientology.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Q And when you say "LRH," you're talking about
2 Mr. Hubbard himself?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And did you ever work for a section called the
5 Guardian's Office?
6 A I was a volunteer for the Guardian's Office in
7 the Boston area in '74, I think.
8 Q How many years?
9 A About two.
10 Q Okay. What types of things did you do for the
11 Guardian's Office?
12 THE COURT: That does seem to be a little
13 far removed from this case. 1974 through 1976?
14 MR. DANDAR: It's all predicate, Judge.
15 I'll show you -- I'll show you a connection real soon.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 A I did basically undercover work, pretty much what
18 a private -- what I feel a private investigator would do.
19 In fact, my husband at that time at one time was a private
20 investigator, and it wasn't that much different.
21 People would work at companies, myself included.
22 If things came up about Scientology, I would report them.
23 If reports were thrown in the trash, I would take them
24 home. If reports were there that might be of interest, I
25 would Xerox them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: Was this a Scientology-run
2 business?
3 THE WITNESS: Oh, no. These were like
4 government offices or companies.
5 THE COURT: Specifically, like what
6 government offices do you remember?
7 THE WITNESS: The attorney general's office
8 a friend of mine was at. I was at the Consumer
9 Council. They handled consumer complaints.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q And did you tell your employer you were a
12 Scientologist?
13 A No.
14 Q So you were undercover?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And the people who also were either working for
17 the Guardian's Office or volunteers, they did the same
18 things in other government offices?
19 A Yes.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. Are
21 we going to now go through the entire Guardian -- we
22 heard all about this from Mr. Frank. We heard how
23 they were disbanded. We heard how they were thrown
24 out of the Church, the leaders of the Guardian, by
25 Mr. Miscavige and Mr. -- and others. Why are we
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 going -- why is Mr. Dandar going back to 1976, when he
2 knows that the Guardian's Office hasn't existed since
3 1981?
4 THE COURT: Well, because I suppose there
5 has been some testimony that the Office of Special
6 Affairs does the same things the Guardian's Office
7 does. You may dispute that, but there's testimony of
8 that.
9 MR. WEINBERG: We more than dispute that.
10 THE COURT: I understand that.
11 MR. WEINBERG: And he hasn't put on evidence
12 of that.
13 THE COURT: Well, you know --
14 MR. WEINBERG: He had a lot of background --
15 I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: Sometimes your side doesn't seem
17 to see what I see, and sometimes his side,
18 Mr. Dandar's side, doesn't seem to see what I see. It
19 seems like that's the case. I guess that's why you
20 have a judge.
21 I think there has been some evidence to
22 that. Whether or not it's been -- it certainly has
23 been refuted.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q How long did you remain a volunteer for the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Guardian's Office?
2 A Just those two years.
3 MR. WEINBERG: She answered that.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q And did you ever work for the Office of Special
6 Affairs?
7 A Well, first it was RTC and then a special mission
8 by RTC and then that got transferred down, because RTC was
9 higher than OSA. Then it got bumped down to the Office of
10 Special Affairs International.
11 Q When did you start working for RTC?
12 A Probably early '83, 1983.
13 Q And what was your first position at RTC?
14 A Well, I wasn't in RTC. I worked on a special
15 project for them. I was public. I was just, you know, out
16 in the world.
17 Q Oh, when did you -- so when you quit the Sea
18 Org --
19 A I went out and got a job.
20 Q You went outside of Scientology?
21 A Yes, basically.
22 Q Okay. And then you became -- but you maintained
23 a membership as a public?
24 A Exactly.
25 Q Okay. And is that what -- is that the word
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 that's used to describe people who are not Sea Org or staff
2 but members of the Church of Scientology, "public"?
3 THE COURT: I don't need to hear that. I've
4 heard that a bunch of times, unless she's going to say
5 something different.
6 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Well, I just wanted
7 to -- because Mr. Weinberg made an objection about
8 that a couple days ago.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
10 THE COURT: I don't really need it.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Okay. So when you became a public member of the
13 Church of Scientology, explain how you were working for
14 RTC.
15 A Well, first -- for the first six months or
16 whatever after I stopped being on staff, after a while they
17 did put me on the list of people that were declared. I was
18 thrown out and -- which means I would be shunned. But then
19 that got corrected. And at the same time that that got
20 corrected, some friends sent me down to RTC, that the
21 person in charge of the mission there at that time wanted
22 to interview me.
23 And the first thing that he had me do was go to
24 David Mayo, who had been -- one of the technical heads of
25 Scientology, had started a splinter group. And there was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 concerns about copyrights. And they wanted to see if I
2 could get connected in there, which I did.
3 Q As an undercover?
4 A Undercover.
5 Q And you were a public --
6 THE COURT: Could I --
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q -- member?
9 THE COURT: Pardon me. When you indicated
10 you were a Sea Org member until 1982, I take it you
11 were a public member thereafter until some point in
12 time?
13 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
14 THE COURT: When would that have been?
15 THE WITNESS: The real final parting?
16 THE COURT: Right.
17 THE WITNESS: It's really kind of cloudy,
18 but I'd say -- '96, '97 -- I mean, really in my head,
19 where I said, "You know what? I'm not a member
20 anymore," probably not until '97.
21 THE COURT: So from 1982 until 1997, you
22 were a public member --
23 THE WITNESS: Basically.
24 THE COURT: -- except for this period of
25 time when you were --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly.
2 THE COURT: But even then, you perceived
3 yourself a member. Is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q So --
7 THE COURT: You say -- I'm sorry,
8 Mr. Dandar.
9 Did you say '97 or '98?
10 THE WITNESS: 1996, 1997 -- either/or, to be
11 honest.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: It was a real kind of fade.
14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q When you were a public member of the Church of
17 Scientology, you were also working as a volunteer for RTC?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Okay. And then in your capacity as working as a
20 volunteer for RTC, you worked for OSA?
21 A Well, after RTC. See, I was -- you have
22 handlers; you have case officers. So initially my case
23 officer wasn't RTC; it was a mission --
24 Q Okay.
25 A -- a group of people assigned specifically. And
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 26
1 they were my people. And then as that group was shifted --
2 which I do not know why; I wasn't privy to that -- then my
3 case handler became somebody more significant.
4 Q How long did you stay working, volunteering,
5 working as a volunteer, for RTC slash OSA slash OSA Int?
6 A Probably two and a half years.
7 Q And was there any difference between the work in
8 the Guardian's Office when it was called the Guardian's
9 Office and the work for OSA when you were volunteering to
10 work for OSA?
11 A As I knew at that time? The differences were
12 with OSA they used a lot more private investigators and
13 they ran things through the attorneys. You would get
14 like -- there would be an operation or you would get
15 briefed to go do something. And they would say, "Oh, we
16 have to run this through the attorneys first." There was a
17 lot more of that.
18 But otherwise in terms of the day-to-day, "Go
19 pretend you're a friend and tell us what they're doing" or
20 "Go here and tell us what they're doing," that was all the
21 same. The information and the intelligence-gathering was
22 the same.
23 Q So -- so your activities of spying on people in
24 the Guardian's Office was the same as your spying for OSA?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form. Could
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 27
1 he just ask questions?
2 THE COURT: Sustained. She uses the term
3 "gathering information." She's not yet used the word
4 "spying," so I don't think you ought to use it here.
5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q When you went undercover, as you said, in David
8 Mayo's organization, what was your assignment?
9 A To befriend, to be -- to find out what was going
10 on. Sometimes there would be something specific for me to
11 do. Other times it was just to be there and find out what
12 they were doing and report back.
13 Q Okay. And what -- did you tell this organization
14 run by Mr. Mayo that you were a -- a worker -- a
15 Scientologist?
16 A An agent for the Church? No, I did not.
17 Q What did you tell them about your affiliation
18 with the Church?
19 A Because I had been on that list in writing that I
20 was thrown out of the Church, that was my -- you know, at
21 that time there was a very large schism within the Church.
22 THE COURT: What date was that? I mean,
23 what year was that?
24 THE WITNESS: 1983 I started.
25 THE COURT: No, I'm sorry. This list that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 28
1 you were on, this schism, where you're talking about a
2 lot of folks were on the list, was this --
3 THE WITNESS: I don't have a copy right to
4 hand, but it was back in '80 to '83 I was on the list.
5 It was a very long list.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: Very long list.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Did that list have anything to do with the power
10 struggle between David Miscavige and Pat Broeker?
11 A Yes, well -- yes. Some of the people did -- the
12 first time I saw some of the names that were to be removed
13 from their positions, most of them were very, very high,
14 and I thought that this was written by a non-church member,
15 that somebody had written -- it was so bizarre at that
16 time. This was so amazing, that these senior executives
17 would be all removed together and said they were like bad
18 people, that I thought that was a made-up thing by some
19 anti-Scientologist.
20 Q When you were undercover in the David Mayo group,
21 did you submit to a deposition?
22 A No.
23 Q Were you deposed about your working in the David
24 Mayo group?
25 A An affidavit at the very end. That's what --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 29
1 that's when I became a potential witness in a court case,
2 and they had me submit an affidavit.
3 Q Did there come a point in time when you gained
4 knowledge that there was a court order prohibiting
5 Scientology from having anybody working for David Mayo?
6 A Correct. They -- during this time, when I was
7 still going in there, there was at one time a court order
8 that said all people -- all agents of the Church, all
9 members of the Church, have to stay within a certain, you
10 know, feet order. You know what I mean?
11 Q An injunction?
12 A Yes, it was an injunction.
13 Q And to your knowledge, personal knowledge, was
14 that order honored?
15 A No, it was not.
16 Q How was it broken?
17 A Well, first I was asked to go up there. And I
18 said: Well, how can I go up this weekend? Isn't there an
19 injunction?
20 And I honestly don't remember. I know there was
21 hesitation and "I'll get back to you and I've got to check
22 with the lawyers," because everything was checked by the
23 lawyers. So whether I came up or not, I can't honestly
24 say.
25 But I do know that they had at least two agents
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 30
1 in there on a permanent basis that were agents of the
2 Church, reporting regularly to the Church, that had staff
3 jobs there. They were there all the time. And they were
4 left just doing their business as usual.
5 Q Did they report to the attorneys or to someone
6 else?
7 A No. They reported to the same person that I
8 reported to.
9 Q Was that an attorney?
10 A No, it was not.
11 Q What post did that person have?
12 A Well, initially he was in RTC. There was an RTC
13 mission there.
14 Q Was this before OSA was formed?
15 A No. This was after OSA. This was during that
16 transition period.
17 Q Okay.
18 THE COURT: Who did you report to? Are we
19 not going to find out?
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Who did you report to?
22 A His name?
23 Q Yes.
24 A Gary Klinger.
25 Q Klinger?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 31
1 A M'hum (affirmative).
2 Q K-l-i-n?
3 A Yes.
4 THE COURT: And Mr. Klinger was where in the
5 organization?
6 THE WITNESS: He was on mission from RTC. I
7 do not know if he was an official RTC staff member,
8 because sometimes they pull people from other
9 organizations to do work for them. But that was his
10 position while he was my case officer.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Do you know who his senior was?
14 A I know now, yes. I didn't at that time.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me, your Honor.
16 She knows now based on something somebody has told
17 you?
18 THE WITNESS: No. I read it on the
19 Internet.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I object to her
21 testifying as to who the senior was if she read it on
22 the Internet.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 32
1 Q But his senior would have been somebody in RTC,
2 right?
3 A Correct.
4 THE COURT: What was the man's name? I
5 got --
6 THE WITNESS: Klinger.
7 THE COURT: Klinger.
8 THE WITNESS: Gary Klinger.
9 THE COURT: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: We weren't allowed, when we
11 were doing it -- like I was spied upon. There were
12 people that I never knew who they were who would check
13 back on what I was doing.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q So what do you mean? You weren't allowed to know
16 what?
17 A It's on a need-to-know basis. That's what they
18 call it, a need-to-know basis. So you would only know the
19 little, tiny part that you were involved in.
20 Q Okay. And then you had people that -- from RTC
21 who were spying on you?
22 A I don't know who they were. But I would come
23 back and people had watched me and observed me and they had
24 reported in on what I had done.
25 Q And how would you find that out?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 33
1 A I would be told by my case officer.
2 Q Okay.
3 THE COURT: In other words, you were -- you
4 were -- they wanted you to know that folks were
5 watching what you were doing?
6 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
7 THE COURT: So they weren't hiding that from
8 you; they were telling you.
9 THE WITNESS: That I was being watched, but
10 I never knew who that person -- those people were.
11 THE COURT: But I guess what I'm saying is
12 you were being made aware that you were being
13 watched --
14 THE WITNESS: Right.
15 THE COURT: -- so that you knew this when
16 you were making your report.
17 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Who else did you go undercover for in addition to
20 David Mayo?
21 A A lot, actually. I would just happen into things
22 sometimes. I went to go get a job at what I thought was a
23 normal computer company, and it ended up being someone
24 connected with the European squirrels at that time.
25 Squirrels are people that leave the Church but still
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 34
1 practice the Church.
2 But a gentleman named Captain Bill, Captain Bill
3 Robertson -- he was a major force in the Sea Org. And
4 during the split with David Mayo and David Miscavige and
5 whatnot, he ended up in the Org.
6 And this little computer company that I thought
7 was a regular computer company ended up being like run by
8 him. You know, he was -- his deputy ran the company.
9 Q Were you -- were you undercover in that company?
10 A Well, then I reported in to my case officer, and
11 I said, "Oh, my god, I got this job," you know.
12 And he said, "Well, go ahead and just report
13 whatever you have."
14 And he would feed it back to -- I think it was --
15 he would feed it back to the person who was -- actually
16 handled the European operations.
17 Q And the people at the computer company, did they
18 know you were a Scientologist?
19 A Yes. They thought -- I'm trying to get this
20 straight. They thought that I was -- see, there were
21 regular Scientologists in the company. And this was at a
22 higher level of the organization. The executives were the
23 ones connected with the European squirrel group, right?
24 THE COURT: I'm getting real confused. The
25 word "squirrel," I don't know what that is.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 35
1 MR. WEINBERG: It's people that have left
2 the Church that are trying to put on a -- trying to
3 use Scientology as a -- their own --
4 MR. DANDAR: (To Mr. Prince) Shh.
5 MR. WEINBERG: It's an altered version of
6 Scientology, in other words. And so they are
7 squirrels and they are disaffected and they are -- you
8 know, they are enemies of the Church of Scientology.
9 They're people that have essentially --
10 THE WITNESS: Yep.
11 THE COURT: You agree with that?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
13 THE COURT: Okay. So this would be like
14 this David Mayo --
15 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
16 THE COURT: -- was using the Church's
17 literature, supposedly was sued for trademark
18 violations --
19 MR. WEINBERG: Exactly.
20 THE COURT: -- or whatever? That would be
21 considered a squirrel group?
22 MR. WEINBERG: That's a squirrel group.
23 They take the copyright and then try to open up their
24 own organization --
25 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 36
1 MR. WEINBERG: -- with it, violating all
2 kinds of law.
3 THE COURT: Okay. When you say this was a
4 squirrel group --
5 THE WITNESS: It was like the European
6 version of David Mayo.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: They went a little different
9 in Europe.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Hubbard's dictionary
12 defines it like that. And there's many definitions,
13 actually, but one of them says: "Going off into weird
14 practices or altering Scientology. Only comes about
15 from non-comprehension." And it goes on and on.
16 Anyway.
17 THE WITNESS: So I was involved in that. I
18 was involved in just about anything else that would
19 kind of come my way. And there would be little minor
20 things that would be given to me. You know: "Oh,
21 there's going to be a meeting over here. Could you go
22 and tell us what happens?"
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I think I interrupted
24 your train of thought. You had been asked whether or
25 not they knew you were with the Church of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 37
1 Scientology --
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
3 THE COURT: -- and you started to talk about
4 that.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, because it was very
6 complicated, because I went and got their job -- I was
7 hired by their general membership as I was a regular
8 Scientologist. And they did not know I was spying for
9 OSA and going to David Mayo's. Right? But then I
10 found out that the leadership, the executives --
11 THE COURT: In the company?
12 THE WITNESS: -- in this company --
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: -- who were keeping it hidden
15 from the regular staff -- right? -- were in actual
16 fact connected with both David Mayo's in America and
17 Captain Bill in New York.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Okay. All right.
20 A So because I was at David Mayo's, okay, then I
21 can't have a regular job here because they know. And then
22 I became a conduit for European information.
23 MR. WEINBERG: And the date of this is?
24 THE WITNESS: This would be '84, '83. It
25 would be -- yes, '83, '84.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 38
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. Did there -- did there come a -- well, any
3 other operations that you participated in with OSA or RTC?
4 A Well, I remember -- I mean, like there would be
5 like little things, like say, for example, this woman -- I
6 don't even remember her name -- but she would be in
7 deposition with Scientology all day. And then I would get
8 a call like, "Hey, she's going to be over at this friend of
9 a friend's house after the deposition," and I would go
10 there just to get their reaction from the deposition.
11 Q And would you go --
12 THE COURT: I don't understand that.
13 THE WITNESS: A witness --
14 THE COURT: A witness for whom?
15 THE WITNESS: She would be against
16 Scientology.
17 THE COURT: In a case?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. She was a witness in a
19 case that Scientology was deposing.
20 THE COURT: Okay. She was a witness against
21 Scientology?
22 THE WITNESS: Against Scientology. And
23 after the day's deposition, they wanted me there to
24 get her reaction, to get some feedback.
25 THE COURT: Did she know that you were doing
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 39
1 this?
2 THE WITNESS: For Scientology? Absolutely
3 not. Absolutely not.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Could we have a name?
5 THE WITNESS: I can't remember her name.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q A date? Year?
8 A Well, it would be between that period, '83, '84.
9 Q Okay.
10 THE COURT: Can you tell me how -- two
11 questions I would have, maybe. One is, How did you
12 just end up at somebody's house? I mean, normally you
13 have to be invited.
14 THE WITNESS: Because it would be a friend
15 of a friend. They knew that I knew somebody who was
16 friends with her.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So you'd just try to be
18 at -- end up at the same place where she was --
19 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
20 THE COURT: -- and listen in?
21 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
22 THE COURT: See if she said anything, and if
23 so, report back.
24 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 40
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Before you left the Sea Org, did you ever work at
3 the Celebrity Center?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Where at?
6 A Celebrity International in Los Angeles.
7 Q And what was your position there?
8 A President.
9 Q How long did you have that?
10 A At least a year. I was only there for two years.
11 Q And this Celebrity Center in Los Angeles, that's
12 where all the movie stars are?
13 A They -- some of them, yes.
14 Q And when you became a public member, did you ever
15 go to Flag in Clearwater?
16 A Yes.
17 Q In fact, when you were a Sea Org member, you were
18 at Flag in Clearwater?
19 A Yes, I was.
20 Q Okay. And do you recall when you went to Flag in
21 Clearwater as a public member?
22 A I don't have at hand the exact dates, but it
23 would be most definitely after 1986. Okay? And I think my
24 last trip was whenever the L.A. earthquake was. What was
25 that, '94?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 41
1 THE COURT: The what, ma'am?
2 THE WITNESS: Earthquake, the big earthquake
3 in Los Angeles. That would be, I believe, 1994.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q So you were at Flag in Clearwater in '94?
6 A In '94.
7 Q Where did you stay?
8 A In '94 I stayed at the Sandcastle. In earlier
9 trips --
10 MR. MOXON: May I interrupt? Mr. Oliver is
11 standing right outside, kind of listening at the door.
12 I just walked by, and it's very easy to hear. For
13 some reason, he's standing right there.
14 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar or Mr. Lirot, would
15 you --
16 MR. DANDAR: We'll take care of it, your
17 Honor.
18 (Mr. Lirot briefly left the courtroom.)
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Did you ever stay at the Fort Harrison Hotel?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q And where in the hotel?
23 A Cabana.
24 Q And the cabana that you stayed in, can you tell
25 us what type of floor it had?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 42
1 A Tile.
2 Q Do you know --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Could we date this?
4 THE COURT: 1994.
5 MR. WEINBERG: No, no.
6 THE WITNESS: No, '94 --
7 MR. WEINBERG: She was at Sandcastle in '94.
8 Then she asked -- could we date it?
9 THE WITNESS: So this would have been like
10 '88, '88.
11 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: Maybe '90.
13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't pick that
14 up. You were in Flag in 1988 and again in 1994?
15 THE WITNESS: I do believe I had three
16 trips.
17 THE COURT: You were going to Flag as other
18 parishioners do --
19 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
20 THE COURT: -- to get the technical --
21 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
22 THE COURT: -- improvement.
23 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
24 THE COURT: Okay. And so one of the times
25 you were there in '88, you stayed in the cabana,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 43
1 that's when the floor of the cabana was tiled.
2 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
3 THE COURT: The last time you were there --
4 THE WITNESS: I was in the Sandcastle.
5 THE COURT: -- you were in the Sandcastle.
6 Okay.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q And that was in 1994?
9 A Correct.
10 Q Were you volunteering for any organization of
11 Scientology in the '90s?
12 A No. I would still get phone calls, though, to do
13 things, but I never did them.
14 Q Who would you get phone calls --
15 A Except for once, I did do one thing. After --
16 after I came forward with the affidavit -- there were a few
17 other things. I was having a lot of trouble with what was
18 going on, truthfully.
19 I couldn't resolve for myself who was right, who
20 was wrong, what side, this side -- I mean, it was really
21 difficult to go back and forth between people that had left
22 the Church and then back to people in OSA.
23 And it was -- I -- I -- truthfully, I think I
24 lost myself in there and I lost my opinions in there,
25 because it gets very confusing when people -- when people
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 44
1 are black and white, you know. I'd go to David Mayo or any
2 of the critics, I mean, I didn't -- you know, and they
3 would be like the Church is all bad. And then you would go
4 to the Church, and it would be like the critics are all
5 bad, just this -- you know, and both sides, to be honest, I
6 think from my perspective of going back and forth, to me
7 they're equally as bad. I mean, they're just -- they do
8 things that are --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. Is
10 there a question?
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
12 THE COURT: I don't remember what it was.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I think what it was is
14 whether she had volunteered to do anything in the
15 '90s --
16 THE WITNESS: So what I'm answering is, yes,
17 I was asked to do things.
18 THE COURT: Counsel, don't be so -- I mean,
19 this lady is about as fair-minded as I've heard yet.
20 This is a lady that really thus far hasn't said
21 anything other than both sides seemed to be equally
22 rabid, although she didn't quite say it that way,
23 about the other --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not quibbling --
25 THE COURT: -- black and white --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 45
1 MR. WEINBERG: I was just asking for
2 questions and answers.
3 THE COURT: Well, I understand. But I found
4 it rather interesting. It was my observation as well.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Did -- when was the last time that you were
7 asked --
8 THE COURT: When you say black and white,
9 ma'am, that's what you mean, that they're fairly stuck
10 on their position?
11 THE WITNESS: Exactly. I call it
12 black-and-white thinking: all good, all bad. And I
13 saw that because I did have that experience of going
14 back and forth.
15 THE COURT: And the Church felt like the
16 anti- -- their critics were out to hurt them and they
17 were all bad, and the critics thought that the Church
18 was all bad and out to hurt them.
19 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
20 THE COURT: And nobody wanted to waver off
21 of that.
22 THE WITNESS: Exactly, exactly. And my very
23 last thing before they pulled me into the court case
24 to do an affidavit was a weekend with this woman who
25 had been LRH's personal PR, and she --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 46
1 THE COURT: What is a PR?
2 THE WITNESS: Public relations. But she was
3 a personal. Right?
4 THE COURT: His personal public relations
5 person?
6 THE WITNESS: And she --
7 MR. WEINBERG: Are we back in the '80s,
8 ma'am?
9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. We are in '85.
10 We're in 1985. And she -- before I had a weekend with
11 her, I was given a briefing, because that's normally
12 how it works. And they brief you on these various
13 different things. It's just individually it had taken
14 a toll on me, what side was what. And I remember in
15 the briefing being told things that I felt I shouldn't
16 know.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Such as?
19 A Personal, private, intimate things about this
20 woman.
21 Q Such as?
22 A Sexual practices.
23 Q And why did you spend the weekend with her?
24 A I had befriended her. She was somebody that -- I
25 had never been close to her when we were in the Sea Org and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 47
1 she had actually been quite a not-nice executive. She had,
2 I thought, hurt several of my friends. And I thought it
3 was a little over the top to go testify -- to be LRH's
4 personal public relations officer and go testify against
5 him. So I didn't have qualms about spying on her.
6 But through this weekend, this woman actually
7 gave me a way out, which was a third kind of view of it,
8 which was not black-and-white thinking. And it was --
9 actually ended up being quite a gift for me from that
10 woman.
11 And after that weekend with her, I did not report
12 in to OSA. I could not report on that woman. And within a
13 week, I was pulled in to make an affidavit.
14 Q Do an affidavit about her?
15 A No. It was about the David Mayo case, which I
16 didn't understand, really, why -- I mean, it was an
17 affidavit and I was a potential witness, but I really
18 didn't have the knowledge of that particular case.
19 Q Okay.
20 THE COURT: What was the David Mayo case,
21 which of these cases?
22 THE WITNESS: Copyright violations.
23 MR. WEINBERG: It was a copyright. He had
24 taken the Church --
25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what is it as far as
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 48
1 the names? Is it one of these names that I've heard
2 of?
3 MR. WEINBERG: No.
4 MR. DANDAR: It's known as Wollersheim II.
5 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not.
6 THE WITNESS: The NOTs case.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: I believe it's Religious
8 Technology Center against Advanced Ability Center,
9 David Mayo, et cetera, et cetera. And it involved the
10 use by the Advanced Ability Center, headed by David
11 Mayo, of NOT materials which --
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- had been stolen and
14 people had been convicted in Denmark for stealing the
15 materials, bringing them --
16 THE COURT: I just simply wanted to know
17 what was the name of the case. I now remember reading
18 something about this in some document.
19 MR. WEINBERG: And it was in the early '80s.
20 THE COURT: Right. Okay. I'm sorry, I just
21 was trying to --
22 THE WITNESS: That's okay.
23 THE COURT: -- put myself into what case we
24 were talking about here.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 49
1 Q So I'd like to -- let's get into the '90s, okay?
2 THE COURT: Who did you give an affidavit
3 for in that case?
4 THE WITNESS: The Church.
5 THE COURT: For the Church?
6 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
7 THE COURT: They asked you to come in and
8 give an affidavit?
9 THE WITNESS: I was a potential witness. I
10 was on standby to be a witness.
11 THE COURT: You gave an affidavit that was
12 true?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, absolutely.
14 THE COURT: They didn't try to get you to
15 lie or anything like that?
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 THE COURT: So you gave an affidavit -- or I
18 don't know whether it's called an affidavit or
19 declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, maybe it was a
21 declaration.
22 THE COURT: They're the same thing.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 THE COURT: Different states call them
25 different things.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 50
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 THE COURT: But you were asked to tell
3 something about what you knew about --
4 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
5 THE COURT: -- this case?
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: And you did that.
8 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Did you admit in the affidavit that you were
12 undercover?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you admit in the affidavit that there were
15 other undercover agents of Scientology in the David Mayo
16 organization that no one knew about?
17 A No.
18 Q Did that concern you, that you might be called to
19 court to testify about that?
20 A Yes.
21 THE COURT: You didn't say in this affidavit
22 that there weren't such people either.
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 THE COURT: In other words, you did not
25 perceive to give any false --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
2 THE COURT: -- testimony in your affidavit,
3 nor do you believe you were asked to. Is that right?
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 THE COURT: You just knew if you were called
6 as a witness, the lawyer might --
7 THE WITNESS: Might say --
8 THE COURT: -- ask you questions --
9 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q There is something in Scientology called the
13 bridge. How high up on the bridge did you go?
14 A Well, I basically had both personal auditing
15 level -- it was the original OT VII, which then changed,
16 and I did the OT V. Okay? So I didn't do the solo NOTs,
17 but I did the audited NOTs of OT V. But I had previously
18 done up to OT VII.
19 On the administrative side of it, I'm very highly
20 trained. I've done pretty much every course that there is,
21 the FEBC course, OEC course, and the DSEC course, the
22 evaluator's course.
23 THE COURT: What is that? That's the
24 technology part of it?
25 THE WITNESS: Of the administration. That's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 how you run organizations. It's not the personal
2 counseling.
3 THE COURT: The OT part of it is --
4 THE WITNESS: Is the personal counseling
5 that I received.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: So I received a lot of that.
8 And then I trained on how to run organizations.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q So you went, of course, past the state of Clear?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you -- when you were in, OT VII was the
13 highest you could go?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right.
16 A No, OT VIII had started before --
17 Q Okay.
18 A -- when I was still in, yes.
19 Q All right. Now, being administratively trained
20 as high as you were, you, of course, heard the phrase
21 "greatest good for the greatest number"?
22 A Correct.
23 Q What does that mean?
24 A That means that when you sit down to make a
25 decision, a moral choice, that you take a look at -- you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 have a paradigm of life, which is called the eight
2 dynamics, which is you just basically break down your life
3 into these eight parts: First, which is yourself --
4 THE WITNESS: Do I need to describe what
5 these are? Do you want to know?
6 THE COURT: I don't know how much of an
7 explanation you want. I frankly have not heard this.
8 I just heard -- that's fine with me.
9 A See, you break your life into these eight parts.
10 And, you know, it's yourself; there's a part that's your
11 family; there's a part that's your group; a part that's
12 mankind; a part that's animals and flowers; there's a part
13 that's -- you know, matter, your things that you have;
14 there's a part that's spirits -- spiritual world; and then
15 there's a final part, which is like infinity or God.
16 That's a change in definition.
17 But anyway, there's eight of them. And when you
18 make a moral choice, you figure out would it benefit -- if
19 it's going to benefit five of these areas of your life,
20 that would be the greatest good, to go forward in that
21 direction because it is the best good for the greater
22 number of dynamics.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q The phrase "the greatest good for the greatest
25 number," does it, in your understanding and your 20 years
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 in Scientology, have anything to do with whether or not you
2 should or should not tell the truth?
3 A Well, there is like acceptable truths.
4 Q And what's that?
5 A That's when you don't outright lie, but you just
6 sort of twist it. You slant it. Public relations people,
7 I think, do that a lot.
8 In the Sea Organization, when you would go on a
9 mission, for example, you were going into another
10 organization and you were there to help. I mean, you're
11 there to, I don't know, build up their course work or
12 whatever. You might have what they call a shore story, is
13 what it's called.
14 And at the bottom of these mission orders is a
15 shore story. And while you're there to remove the
16 executive director from the board who is having sex with
17 somebody he shouldn't and you're removing him from
18 position, you wouldn't tell that to the staff. You would
19 then say you're there to better the organization. It's not
20 a lie; you're there to better the organization. But you
21 don't concentrate on the negative.
22 And, you know, people do this all the time. I
23 mean, that's a very common slant.
24 Q Well, when you went undercover for -- in the
25 David Mayo organization and told everyone you're not a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Scientologist, what do you call that?
2 A I was pretty trapped in there. But, yes, I was
3 lying. I was lying.
4 THE COURT: Would that -- that would not be
5 what you just defined as an acceptable --
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 THE COURT: -- truth, right?
8 THE WITNESS: No, that's just --
9 THE COURT: That's just a --
10 THE WITNESS: But I'm trying to fill --
11 THE COURT: -- lie?
12 THE WITNESS: -- my lie with a cover --
13 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, when the Judge is
14 asking questions, if you would go --
15 THE WITNESS: One at a time?
16 THE REPORTER: -- one at a time. Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: What was I saying?
18 THE COURT: I don't know.
19 Madam Court Reporter --
20 MR. WEINBERG: What she said was, but I was
21 trying to fill my lie with my cover, or something like
22 that.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: Exactly. I would try to fill
25 it with as much truth as possible. I mean, I was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 really Nancy Many. I really did have a husband. I
2 really did have a child. You know what I mean? There
3 was as much truth as I could have and as few lies as I
4 needed to maintain the cover.
5 THE COURT: So you did not believe that you
6 were trained in the Church of Scientology -- excuse
7 me -- the Church of Scientology to lie when it was
8 convenient for the good of the Church.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, you did have to protect
10 the Church at all costs. And that was my moral
11 dilemma, sitting there in the witness room potentially
12 going on the stand. That was a personal very, very
13 difficult moment for me.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: And I was very lucky. I never
16 got called to the witness stand, and no one ever asked
17 me the question.
18 THE COURT: The dilemma being --
19 THE WITNESS: Would I protect --
20 THE COURT: -- would you protect the --
21 THE WITNESS: -- the Church.
22 THE COURT: -- Church, whether you would
23 protect the Church.
24 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Q With all your training in Scientology, was the
2 answer to that question pursuant to Scientology?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Her understanding of that?
4 MR. DANDAR: Her understanding.
5 A Could you give me that question again? I'm
6 sorry.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q With your understanding -- in your training in
9 Scientology for 20 years, what is your understanding, if
10 you had been called to testify, how you would resolve that
11 moral dilemma?
12 A Like I said, I'm very thankful I was not called
13 to testify.
14 THE COURT: Yes. That's a hypothetical.
15 She doesn't know the answer to that.
16 A I don't know what I would have done. I really
17 don't.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Okay. While you were a member in good
20 standing --
21 THE COURT: If I could just follow up with
22 one question about that. In order to protect
23 Scientology, there would be times you would tell a
24 lie?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: Okay. Now, what I'm having
2 trouble with, when I hear this definition of
3 "acceptable truth," I don't know whether that's an
4 acceptable truth or whether the term "acceptable
5 truth" has something to do with what you just
6 described, which would be an acceptable truth is
7 telling an organization something more positive --
8 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
9 THE COURT: -- than some negative thing that
10 would just hurt people.
11 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Is that what you think of
13 as an acceptable truth?
14 THE WITNESS: In the majority --
15 THE COURT: Or --
16 THE WITNESS: -- of cases, because it can
17 also be used destructively. It can also be used
18 destructively.
19 THE COURT: When you lie to protect -- to
20 protect Scientology, what is that? Is that an
21 acceptable truth? Or is that just a lie to protect
22 Scientology?
23 THE WITNESS: In some cases -- I mean, I'm
24 just looking back on when did I do that. I would --
25 THE COURT: I mean, I understand about your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 job.
2 THE WITNESS: When --
3 THE COURT: Somebody who is going to go do
4 undercover work, you can't do effective -- I mean,
5 people do it all the time --
6 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
7 THE COURT: -- not just Scientology and the
8 government folks, but, you know, anybody that's going
9 to do any undercover work, including the government or
10 what have you. They are not effective if they go in
11 and say, "I'm here from the FBI," you know. So I
12 understand that. So that's -- we're not talking about
13 that.
14 THE WITNESS: But I am -- all right. Say,
15 for example, like you would -- you would not -- you
16 would never forward negative information about
17 Scientology. I mean, you just -- you just wouldn't do
18 that. You wouldn't. I mean, it wouldn't matter what
19 it was, because that was the senior thing.
20 Per the moral definition, if you go
21 backwards to what I was saying of the greatest good
22 for the greatest number, that therefore, when you are
23 a member of this group, they are the greatest good for
24 the greatest number. You see?
25 So under that umbrella, you would always
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 veer towards the protection of them almost at any
2 cost. And that is where I got into big personal
3 trouble.
4 THE COURT: Here again, this is the first
5 time I've heard "the greatest good for the greatest
6 number" defined in the fashion you defined it. Now
7 I'm not sure what -- in other words, you told me that
8 there are eight --
9 THE WITNESS: Areas.
10 THE COURT: -- areas, dynamics.
11 THE WITNESS: Right.
12 THE COURT: And of these eight dynamics,
13 these would be personal dynamics --
14 THE WITNESS: Right.
15 THE COURT: -- personal to you --
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
17 THE COURT: -- your family, your spirit,
18 your -- I don't know.
19 MR. WEINBERG: God.
20 THE COURT: God.
21 THE WITNESS: God. Infinity.
22 THE COURT: Infinity.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: All those things. And you would
25 decide -- make decisions based on what was the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 greatest good for the greatest number of those eight
2 things.
3 THE WITNESS: Right.
4 THE COURT: Now, how does that then comport
5 to --
6 THE WITNESS: To Scientology?
7 THE COURT: -- Scientology? Because --
8 THE WITNESS: Because if you are -- when you
9 are a very, very good member, as I was for many years,
10 it is the ultimate. It is -- you could not look at
11 your eight dynamics without seeing how Scientology
12 would be good for all of them and how more Scientology
13 in the world would be good for everyone.
14 THE COURT: So if Scientology would be
15 adversely affected, then this one dynamic would
16 likewise be adversely affected.
17 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, absolutely.
18 THE COURT: And that would come into your --
19 THE WITNESS: As a person --
20 THE COURT: -- thinking as you would be
21 thinking on what to do in an individual case.
22 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
23 THE COURT: Okay. This is, of course --
24 this is her speaking --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: -- from her perspective.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Was there anything in your 20 years -- was there
4 anything that you were asked to do that you didn't do
5 because it would hurt you rather than protect Scientology?
6 THE COURT: That's an odd question.
7 MR. DANDAR: It is.
8 THE WITNESS: It is.
9 MR. DANDAR: It's a bad question.
10 THE COURT: Yes. I don't know what you're
11 talking about.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Was there -- was there any point in your 20-year
14 experience where you didn't do something even though it
15 would serve the greatest good for the greatest number?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I object to the way
17 that was -- if he -- if he wants to ask, "Is there
18 anything that you didn't do," fine. But didn't do
19 because of the greatest good for the greatest number,
20 I object to that.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Is there any point in your career, your 20-year
23 membership, where you decided not to protect the Church?
24 A I would say it was a gradual thing, but, yes,
25 where I became more and more -- I tried to reconcile. This
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 goes back to when I did all my work for OSA and I was
2 exposed to both sides and felt both sides were rabid, is a
3 word I've used before -- I have -- black-and-white
4 thinking, both sides are black-and-white thinking. You go
5 to the critics, and Scientology is all bad. You go to
6 Scientology, and the critics are all bad. It's just very
7 volatile.
8 And I couldn't reconcile this with a definition
9 of greatest good for greatest number versus do unto others
10 as you want done to you. Basically you get what you sow,
11 you -- that basic rule, right? I couldn't resolve that
12 with the greatest good for greatest number, because if I
13 tracked greatest good for greatest number, it could turn
14 into the ends justify the means and it is okay to violate a
15 court order because it's for Scientology.
16 I mean, it's so easily -- it's that slippery
17 slope that I saw myself doing and I saw my group doing it.
18 And it became a --
19 THE COURT: Your group was?
20 THE WITNESS: Scientology. This is at the
21 time that I'm still very much a member.
22 THE COURT: Well, your group, you're talking
23 about your Org or your --
24 THE WITNESS: The whole of Scientology.
25 THE COURT: The whole of Scientology. Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q How do you -- how do you view Scientology today?
3 A I view Scientology as something that has a
4 tremendous amount of good and at the same time has some
5 areas that are really, really flawed, basically.
6 Q Are you an anti-Scientologist?
7 A No.
8 Q Have you ever been?
9 A No. I mean, you know, when you say that, I get
10 this picture of these people that I used to hang out with
11 as a spy, and I just -- I cannot go there, could not go
12 there. And I do have people in my life who do feel that
13 strongly. And the difference now from being a
14 Scientologist is that I can have people in my life and be
15 friends with them and very much disagree with how their
16 views are.
17 Q Your husband used to be a Scientologist also?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you're both out of the Church now?
20 A Now.
21 Q All right. Do you recall a set of
22 circumstances -- and I'm just going to ask you a very vague
23 question -- a set of circumstances where you discovered one
24 of your private e-mails had somehow been intercepted?
25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: Do you want to date this?
2 THE WITNESS: Nineteen -- when did Lisa die,
3 '95?
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q December '95.
6 A I keep getting confused. January 1996.
7 Q What happened?
8 A Well, first, I wrote the e-mail in the fall of
9 1995.
10 Q Who did you write it to?
11 A A woman named Kim Baker, who was on the Internet,
12 and she was very much confused. And she struck a chord
13 with me, because she was going back and forth: I'm in
14 Scientology. No, I'm not in Scientology. Scientology is
15 good. No, Scientology is bad.
16 You know, she was just a very confused woman and
17 having a very hard time with it. And I do believe she
18 posted some things that were negative about Scientology.
19 This was all in Africa. And I knew --
20 THE COURT: Africa?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, South Africa.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 A But it was on Internet communication. I
24 privately sent her an e-mail, just that I understood. And
25 she wrote back, "How could you possibly write to me because
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 1, Page 66
1 I am on the list?" You know, the declared people list.
2 And if you're a Scientologist --
3 THE COURT: Who was that? You were on the
4 list?
5 THE WITNESS: No. She was on the list. I
6 was not on the list at the time.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q You were still in good standing --
9 A I was still in good standing, absolutely. And
10 she was saying: "How could you write to me? I'm on the
11 list."
12 And I wrote back to her saying that I was not
13 concerned about her, talking with her. I was concerned
14 about the people that OSA would place near her to spy on
15 her.
16 And that was the content of the e-mail. And I
17 wrote that in the fall. And in January 1996, I got a call
18 from the last case officer that I had had at OSA Int --
19 Who had called periodically throughout the years
20 to ask me to volunteer for different things. I mean, it
21 wasn't like I would move; five years later. I mean, I had
22 had talks with her.
23 -- to come and meet her. And when I did at OSA
24 Int, I was handed this private e-mail that I had sent her.
25 Q And what was your reaction?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 A How ironic. I mean, obviously, they had somebody
2 close to her or -- I mean, it was -- just the irony was
3 unbelievable to me. And I had signed my real name. I
4 mean, I said, you know, I'm not -- I wasn't trying to even
5 be covert on the Internet, you know. And I told her at
6 that time, because she had been my case officer, that --
7 Q You're talking about OSA Int now?
8 A OSA Int now.
9 Q Okay.
10 A This is 1996, January of 1996, and I am in the
11 office of OSA Int with the person who had been my case
12 officer throughout these years that I worked for them,
13 towards the end.
14 And she hands me this e-mail. And I'm telling
15 her that it was funny that it came up now because I had
16 recently resolved for myself my moral dilemma. And I said
17 to her that I felt that what OSA Int did to some degree in
18 different things that I was involved in were not morally
19 correct. They might not have been illegal, okay, because
20 we're not talking illegal. And I know most of these things
21 are done by PIs and other -- Scientology is not the only
22 one that does these kind of things, manipulative things.
23 But I said it doesn't change the fact that it's not right.
24 And I mentioned Laurel, that woman. And I
25 said if I ever saw her again, I would apologize,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 because what was done to her was not right.
2 THE COURT: "To her." Now, who is this
3 "her"?
4 THE WITNESS: Her name is Laurel Sullivan.
5 THE COURT: Oh, this is not Kim Baker you're
6 talking about.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 THE COURT: Who is Laurel Sullivan?
9 THE WITNESS: Laurel Sullivan was the person
10 that came to my house. The weekend overnight person?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Back in the '80s.
12 THE WITNESS: Back in the '80s. I'm just
13 saying -- I'm just saying -- I'm telling this person
14 that we had spied on this woman. And now in 1995, I'm
15 saying: You know what? That wasn't right. It wasn't
16 right.
17 THE COURT: And if you saw that woman, you
18 would apologize.
19 THE WITNESS: I would apologize to her.
20 And I went on to say that I had had a
21 tremendous amount of trouble over the past five years.
22 This is -- now we're getting into major trauma, and --
23 MR. DANDAR: Take some water. Or do you
24 want to take a little break?
25 THE COURT: Do you want to take a little
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 break?
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 THE WITNESS: Not yet. But then I might.
5 And then I had worked at trying to get this
6 resolved for myself. And I just wanted to go back to
7 feeling like I used to feel before I was a spy for
8 Scientology in OSA and was exposed to all these
9 different things that kind of jumbled my mind, you
10 know, in terms of right, wrong. You know what I mean?
11 And she offered help there --
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Who offered help?
14 A Two women at OSA Int. One's name is Donna, and
15 the other one is Kirsten. And they didn't know this other
16 stuff about me. They only knew the e-mail.
17 THE COURT: What is the "other stuff"? What
18 do you mean?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, that I had been in touch
20 with Arnie Lerma. That name might kind of ring a bell
21 for them because they were in the middle of litigation
22 with him and other people. I mean, they didn't know
23 that I was sitting there with this moral dilemma.
24 They only knew that e-mail.
25 THE COURT: You had been in touch with some
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 folks that might be considered critics?
2 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
3 THE COURT: And they knew you had been in
4 touch with them.
5 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
6 THE COURT: Here was OSA Int offering you
7 help. And you had this dilemma that they didn't
8 know --
9 THE WITNESS: No, no. I told them.
10 THE COURT: Oh, you did tell them.
11 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. I did not --
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 THE WITNESS: I was very upfront about it.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: And they offered me help, and
16 I was very happy to take that help.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And what help did they offer you?
19 A They offered me some counseling --
20 Q Okay.
21 A -- to help me sort out, you know, right or wrong
22 or, you know, the feelings of doubt.
23 Q And what happened next?
24 A I went in for counseling. And you also need to
25 understand I had had 20 years of counseling that was good,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 very good. I had no reason to doubt that this wouldn't be
2 of help.
3 Q Okay.
4 A When you're in this kind of counseling, you are
5 trained -- this is not like a bad thing.
6 (Mr. Dandar handed the witness Kleenexes.)
7 A The auditor, the counselor, sits by the door so
8 you don't leave until the auditor -- the auditor is in
9 control. In other words, you're allowing this person to be
10 in control to help you dig through personal issues. Right?
11 THE COURT: So when you talked about you
12 were counseling in the Church of Scientology, that's
13 auditing?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, auditing.
17 THE COURT: So when you go into an auditing
18 session, it's the auditor that controls the session --
19 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
20 THE COURT: -- not the --
21 THE WITNESS: Not the Pre-Clear.
22 THE COURT: -- Pre-Clear.
23 THE WITNESS: And the auditor sits by the
24 door. And --
25 THE COURT: Can I ask you a question? When
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 you left Sea Org and became a public member, did you
2 lose your Clear status? Or are you still a Clear?
3 THE WITNESS: No, you're still a Clear.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm still a Clear.
6 THE COURT: I guess in my own head I never
7 understood Lisa McPherson was a Clear and then she
8 wasn't a Clear. She was a Pre-Clear. So I --
9 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. That -- a Pre-Clear
10 is just something that covers people, you know, that
11 are -- it's a sort of -- with regard to folders. But
12 it can include people anywhere on the bridge.
13 MR. DANDAR: So --
14 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, lower, upper
15 levels.
16 THE COURT: So she was Clear still.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Okay. And you were Clear --
20 THE WITNESS: Right.
21 THE COURT: -- at this time.
22 THE WITNESS: Correct.
23 THE COURT: So the fact that you would go to
24 Sea Org and become a public member does not stop --
25 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: -- your position on the bridge
2 or --
3 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
4 THE COURT: -- whatever.
5 THE WITNESS: It just costs you more money.
6 You have to pay for it now.
7 MR. DANDAR: And the fact that you were --
8 THE COURT: And the reason for that is
9 because, as Sea Org members, you're devoting sort of
10 your life --
11 THE WITNESS: Exactly. That's your
12 exchange.
13 THE COURT: That's your exchange. And
14 you're getting therefore free -- I guess free.
15 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
16 THE COURT: But you devote your life and
17 work very hard as a staff person. If you're a public,
18 you have to pay for that.
19 THE WITNESS: Right.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q So when you quit Scientology, you're still Clear?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay.
25 A I have whatever I got.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Q Right, right. And the 20 years of auditing,
2 training courses, in your experience, were all good?
3 A Well, I had bumps in the road. I'm not saying
4 there weren't bumps in the road. But I'm saying overall,
5 it was not a harmful experience for me. It was not.
6 Q Okay. So you weren't --
7 A It was not. And there was a lot that I still use
8 today, a lot.
9 Q So in January '96, the OSA person sent you to get
10 some auditing?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Okay. And what happened then?
13 A It was not like any kind of auditing I had ever
14 had before. It was invasive. It was -- I mean, there were
15 times when the auditor was standing, screaming at me. And
16 it went on for day after day after day, for hours and hours
17 at a time.
18 And emotionally I was just getting worse. And I
19 knew after day one, after day one, I knew that this was not
20 meant to help me and that it wasn't helping me. But
21 because in Scientology, if I didn't go back in, they would
22 have put me back on that list. I would have lost my job,
23 my association with them --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
25 A -- as a Scientologist.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: What is the relevance of
2 this? How -- I mean, we're in a position now --
3 Mr. Dandar is having her talk about religious
4 counseling. It's not -- it's not supposed to be a
5 trial about -- about the religion of Scientology,
6 whether or not counseling is good or not good.
7 There is no way that I would or could
8 cross-examine her about this experience. I'm
9 certainly not going to bring an auditor in here. This
10 is a priest-penitent session. And so now he is --
11 THE COURT: If it is, it's hers to waive.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it may be, but it has
13 nothing to do with this hearing or this trial as to
14 whether this affects her job or anything like that.
15 THE COURT: I would agree with you. He
16 tells us he's going to bring out the relevance.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then maybe I would urge
18 him to do that, because it is -- I think it is
19 inappropriate.
20 MR. DANDAR: It would have been done
21 already.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Could I finish, please?
23 MR. DANDAR: I think we need to stop this.
24 THE COURT: Yes, I do too. I think it's
25 relevant, I guess. He says it's relevant. I'm going
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1 to let him go. There's been a lot of stuff that we've
2 let in. This is her privilege. If she wants to waive
3 it, she can waive it. It's not yours to claim.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. Just that last
5 remark, and I'll sit down.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor --
7 MR. DANDAR: Now we have two.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- it is the Church's to
9 claim.
10 THE COURT: No, it is not the Church's to
11 claim. The priest-penitent privilege can be waived by
12 the penitent at any time. It cannot be waived by the
13 priest. I'm quite clear about that. Sit down. We're
14 moving on.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I'm making another point just
16 for the record, just to comment on the last comment
17 that your Honor made. It is true that a lot has been
18 let in -- I just wanted the record to be clear -- that
19 over our objection there have been many of these
20 things that have to do with the religion of
21 Scientology.
22 THE COURT: That's true. And I believe that
23 what I said was that I would make a ruling on that at
24 some time after we had legal argument.
25 MR. WEINBERG: You had said that "we" had
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1 let in. I just wanted to make sure that wasn't --
2 THE COURT: There's a lot of stuff that I
3 let you let in that I'm going to rule probably at the
4 end of this hearing is absolutely irrelevant to these
5 proceedings, from both sides. I have let in a lot of
6 stuff that I am probably going to determine has
7 nothing to do with the decision that I'm going to
8 make. It's been kind of a wide open hearing. I let
9 it go that way. I'm going to sort it all out.
10 But this is her privilege, and Mr. Dandar
11 said it has some relevance. That's the way I've been
12 ruling. Let it end. If it doesn't have any
13 relevance, I'm going to eliminate it. Thus far --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. Fine, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Okay. But go ahead.
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I just want to
17 say that in California, where I think this took place,
18 the law is that the privilege is both of the Church
19 and the minister, as well as the parishioner. So that
20 it is not hers to waive.
21 THE COURT: This is Florida, Counselor.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I know, but the auditing
23 took place in California.
24 THE COURT: This is Florida, and this case
25 is taking place in Florida. And in the State of
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1 Florida, the priest-penitent privilege can be waived
2 by the penitent. This is a Florida case. I don't
3 care where the auditing took place. What I care about
4 is where this trial is taking place.
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, I think
6 the law in California would govern an auditing session
7 that took place --
8 THE COURT: Well, then suppose you brief
9 that for me at the end of this hearing, just like
10 you're going to brief all the other religious issues,
11 and I'll make a ruling. But for right now I'd like to
12 move on.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q So how long did this different type of auditing
15 take place?
16 THE WITNESS: I just want to make sure here,
17 Judge, that if I say like one thing that happened in
18 that session that I'm not now waiving, that they can
19 go take my 20 years worth of private Pre-Clear -- do
20 you understand what I mean? That they can now freely
21 expose whatever I told them in private.
22 THE COURT: I would not assume that a Church
23 would want to do that. If this has some relevance to
24 this hearing, I would assume you can talk about this.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
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1 THE COURT: They would be able to fully
2 explore this.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Good.
4