143
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
3
4
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 2
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15
16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
17
CONTENTS: Testimony of Frank Oliver.
18
DATE: July 12, 2002. Afternoon Session.
19
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
20 St. Petersburg, Florida.
21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
22
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
23 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
8
9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
10 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
11 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
12
13 MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
16 Organization.
17
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
19 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
20 Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
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1 THE COURT: You understand the same oath we
2 gave you yesterday you are under now throughout your
3 testimony?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I understand.
5 THE COURT: You may continue. I'm sorry if you
6 were waiting for me.
7 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
11 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 160 and ask if you can
12 identify that document for the Court.
13 A Yes, I can. This is an executive directive,
14 "Security Situation Handling Checklist."
15 Q And is this one of the documents that you were
16 required to be familiar with as part of your participation
17 in OSA?
18 A Yes. It was.
19 Q All right. What was it in this document that you
20 were required to be familiar with?
21 A Mmm, this particular document is -- it's a check
22 sheet that delineates different types of categories that
23 would be of concern to the Office of Special Affairs,
24 categories of individuals who would be identified as
25 potential security situations. They referred to people
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1 within and outside of the organization in the description of
2 the different categories.
3 Q All right. Now, on the back -- on the second
4 page, amongst, I guess, the theories of public people
5 attacking the organization and squirrels which I think we've
6 become familiar with, and external sources threatening legal
7 action and newspaper reporters and things, if you turn to
8 the second page and look at Subsection G, was there ever any
9 explanation as to why that particular category would be
10 listed as threats to the -- I guess the security of
11 Scientology?
12 A Yes. These particular individuals, as shown here,
13 would be considered people that were PTS, that could cause
14 serious problems with the organization. They would be
15 something that the Office of Special Affairs would
16 definitely be aware of and would look into to try and handle
17 whatever situation arose because of that type of person
18 being identified.
19 Someone who is Type III, for example. Or anyone
20 that would be antagonistic that could be connected to them.
21 If you have somebody that was. Or an attempted suicide
22 case, that delineates here, anyone connected to them, that
23 could cause a problem for the organization in terms of
24 making the problem public, making it known, taking it
25 outside of the organization for it to be handled.
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1 Q So not to assume anything, but in studying this,
2 what did you understand where it says, "Any external or
3 antagonistic connections to them, to a suicide case or a PTS
4 Type III," what would an external or antagonistic case or
5 PTS case type be?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about what it
7 means to you as to what --
8 THE COURT: Yes. To him.
9 MR. WEINBERG: To him?
10 A Okay, my understanding, from reading this, and
11 knowing the definition of what that says, it would be the
12 family members that would be associated with that type of an
13 individual. If they would be antagonistic to the
14 organization, then it would be something they would want to
15 handle, because if you could handle the individual within
16 the organization, you can't not be able to handle the
17 family, as well, or anyone connected to them. And that
18 would be outside of the organization.
19 What the checklist does is it identifies which
20 categories of individuals delineated on the list would be a
21 matter for whether it be internal, handled by HCO, or
22 whether it be something handled by the Office of Special
23 Affairs that would be something that would be outward
24 facing, or external.
25 The Office of Special Affairs is an
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1 outward-looking unit. And basically what it does, it sets
2 itself up as a shield, if you will, to -- Mmm -- handle
3 anything from an outside source that would cause a problem
4 for Scientology. So it is basically the front line.
5 And this kind of shows what the things -- what
6 things you do to handle the different types of individuals.
7 If it is somebody who is connected to a group, let's say,
8 some kind of -- as it says here, members connected to
9 anti-religious group, for example. They would identify that
10 as being something that OSA would handle, versus something
11 that HCO would handle, or somebody that was in the
12 organization, that may be a different case manifestation or
13 something they would have to handle on the individual inside
14 the organization.
15 Q Would OSA covertly surveil the distraught parents
16 of a suicide victim, situations under this -- this policy
17 letter?
18 A Under the policy letter, it would be a matter for
19 OSA to handle. And they would do the actions that OSA
20 partake in. The things that OSA does, whether it be
21 investigation, OBC, anything they deem that would be
22 important to gather information on that individual, if it
23 was a family member or any outside source, they would do the
24 steps that are delineated in the check sheet, steps
25 delineated -- the responsibilities of the Office of Special
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1 Affairs, that is what they would take care of.
2 So that goes without saying, almost, but I'll say
3 it.
4 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
5 160 into evidence.
6 MR. WEINBERG: It is my continuing objection.
7 Remember, yesterday, about how he got the documents?
8 THE COURT: Are you saying these are part of
9 the stolen documents?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. But, you know, that is my
11 only objection, the manner in which he got them, not
12 the policy itself.
13 THE COURT: Okay. It will be received.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
16 marked as Exhibit 161 and ask you if you can identify that
17 for the Court.
18 A Yes. Yes, this is Hubbard Communications Office
19 policy letter dated -- dated 15 August, 1960.
20 THE COURT: Maybe I'm confused. And I do want
21 to clear this up because in my mind I need to get
22 this cleared up. I was thinking yesterday that once
23 we really got into this, that the stolen matters
24 were like the notes, not the documents.
25 MR. WEINBERG: It is really his -- it's a lot
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1 of things that he took that, by agreement, he wasn't
2 entitled to take.
3 I'm not objecting to the way Hubbard policy,
4 per se -- I'm objecting to the way in which these
5 came into possession of Mr. Oliver. All right?
6 THE COURT: Just so I know and just so I'm
7 clear, Mr. Oliver has testified that he took a
8 course which he paid for, I take it --
9 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. No. No. These
10 materials were part of his job, his hat at OSA in
11 the Church.
12 In other words, he wasn't a public member
13 taking a course. He was a staff member, much like,
14 you know, an employee would come to my firm and get,
15 among other things, an office manual, for example,
16 and various other things that would set forth, you
17 know, the rules and regulations of being at my law
18 firm, for example.
19 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge --
20 MR. WEINBERG: So, I mean, I'll go over it in
21 cross-examination.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That is my objection.
24 THE COURT: For now, I'll let them in and we'll
25 see if there is a legal question for them after
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1 we're done.
2 MR. LIROT: Judge, as a brief response, these
3 are all copywritten documents. These are no
4 different than policy letters identified, I guess,
5 as scripture of the Church, apparently that we have
6 volumes and volumes of.
7 THE COURT: I'm letting them in for now. And
8 we're going to let him cross-examine, and then if
9 there is a legal issue, I'll address it and give you
10 an opportunity to argue it, as well as the Church to
11 argue it.
12 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Which exhibit are you on?
14 MR. LIROT: We're on 161. This is one of the
15 ones we decided we would expedite.
16 BY MR. LIROT:
17 Q This is one of the documents, one of the policy
18 letters you were required to be familiar with, and you would
19 dispatch the policies in this letter as part of your
20 affiliation with OSA, is that correct?
21 A Yes. This is part of the documents I was to
22 become very familiar with.
23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move 161
24 into evidence.
25 THE COURT: Subject to the same --
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 BY MR. LIROT:
4 Q Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what we marked as
5 Exhibit 162 and ask if you can identify this document for
6 the Court.
7 A Mmm, this is a Hubbard Communications Office
8 bulletin of 5 November, 1967 entitled "Critics of
9 Scientology."
10 THE COURT: Tell me, on the distribution --
11 what I perceive to have been in the past
12 distribution data, what a "BPI" is on the left-hand
13 side?
14 THE WITNESS: Broad -- I believe it is "broad
15 public issue," which means it is something
16 disseminated broadly within the organization.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR. LIROT:
19 Q Mr. Oliver, you were looking at Exhibit 162, "The
20 Critics of Scientology."
21 A Yes.
22 Q Can you tell me what elements of this
23 particular -- this is a bulletin. Please identify the
24 concepts in this bulletin that you were required to be
25 familiar with and dispatch in your responsibilities with
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1 OSA.
2 A This was written to point out or to -- to make it
3 known that if it was determined to be a fact that --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, what my objection
5 is, he's saying it was written for a particular
6 reason.
7 The question is what was it in this document
8 that you were -- had to become familiar with.
9 THE COURT: Well, you know, I was interested in
10 that, too, because the truth of the matter is if he
11 was told to read the document, I'm assuming he was
12 supposed to read the whole document.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What I'm saying, when he says it
14 was written for a particular reason, obviously
15 Mr. Hubbard wrote it.
16 THE COURT: Right.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I think this is one Mr. Hubbard
18 wrote. You and I and no one else in the world, you
19 know, know exactly what was the reason.
20 THE COURT: That is sustained. But let me see
21 if I'm right on this. When you are asked what were
22 you to be familiar with, I assume if you are given
23 the document, you are to be familiar with everything
24 that is in it.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: I mean, they didn't just mark
2 little pieces of it and say "Just learn this"?
3 THE WITNESS: No. The whole thing.
4 THE COURT: So when you are talking about a
5 given piece, it is because you are being asked a
6 question about that, not because you weren't
7 familiar and expected to be familiar with the entire
8 document? True?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. LIROT: All right.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q Mr. Oliver, let me draw your attention down to the
14 last two lines on Page 782 of this particular exhibit. Read
15 that into the record, if you will, and tell me what your
16 understanding of that particular concept in that paragraph
17 was.
18 A "Now, get this as a technical fact, not a hopeful
19 idea. Every time we have investigated the background of a
20 critic of Scientology, we have found crime for which that
21 person or group could be imprisoned under existing law. We
22 do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal
23 pasts. Over and over we have proved this."
24 Q What was the idea behind that when you were
25 dispatching your responsibilities for critics of
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1 Scientology?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. The same objection.
3 THE COURT: Yes. I think that is a difficult
4 thing for him to answer, what was the -- whatever it
5 is behind that. I mean, it says what it says. It
6 doesn't use any odd language. I understand what
7 they're saying. I'm not sure what you're asking
8 him.
9 Were you to go out and try to prove these
10 crimes? Is that part of what OSA did?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. This policy letter states
12 it in such a way that any actions taken by the
13 individual in the Office of Special Affairs reading
14 this that has to know it, that has to go out on
15 assignment and do anything, that is a basic premise.
16 Anybody who speaks out against Scientology is a
17 criminal. That is a given.
18 So this policy letter just reiterates that
19 fact, which isn't necessarily a fact.
20 BY MR. LIROT:
21 Q Well, does this mean that whether or not somebody
22 actually has crimes as, I guess, the definition would be
23 outside of Scientology, whether OSA would try to create
24 situations that would infer or by innuendo suggest that such
25 crimes, real or imagined, exist?
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1 A I --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form of the
3 question, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 What does this mean to you?
6 THE WITNESS: To me, it meant that anything
7 that was asked of an individual like myself in the
8 Office of Special Affairs to do could be justified
9 in that this, as it was written, states that anyone
10 who speaks out critically about Scientology has some
11 kind of crime or is a criminal. Thus, there are
12 policies that dictate how that individual is to be
13 handled, how that individual is to be investigated,
14 and the fact that the organization is correct in all
15 its assumptions in that anyone that speaks out
16 critically is a criminal, that they are correct just
17 by mere virtue of the written word of L. Ron
18 Hubbard.
19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
20 162 into evidence.
21 THE COURT: It will be received.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
24 marked as Exhibit 163 and ask you if you can identify this
25 for the Court.
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1 A This is a Hubbard Communications Office policy
2 letter of 25 February, 1966 entitled "Attacks on
3 Scientology."
4 Q Was this one of the documents that you were
5 required to be familiar with as part of your training and
6 accreditation in OSA?
7 A Yes.
8 MR. LIROT: I would like to move Exhibit 163
9 into evidence, Judge.
10 THE COURT: It will be received.
11 Can you tell me what a R-E-M-I --
12 THE WITNESS: Remimeo?
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 THE WITNESS: I believe it was part of the
15 organization that did the -- I believe it was
16 involved in doing printing of this or reduplicating
17 of it, I believe. I'm not sure of that, your Honor,
18 but I believe --
19 THE COURT: Am I right that these things up
20 here on the left-hand side are generally the people
21 to whom this is distributed?
22 THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor. That is a
23 distribution area of the document.
24 THE COURT: I'm talking about the first one. I
25 can't even read it.
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1 THE WITNESS: Remimeo. Everything in the upper
2 left-hand corner of the policy letter indicates who
3 the individuals are that this policy letter -- these
4 people are to know about this policy letter.
5 THE COURT: Who is that? Here it is. Look at
6 it on the next page, next one, it looks like it is
7 R-E-M-I-M-C-O.
8 THE WITNESS: R-E-M-I-M-E-O.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think I can
10 clarify that.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I think all it means it can be
13 recopied at the local org.
14 MR. LIROT: Prior to the advent of the copy
15 machine it used to be the mimeograph, and they would
16 have those machines that would roll off the copies
17 and have that pungent aroma.
18 THE COURT: I do remember those.
19 MR. LIROT: All right.
20 MR. WEINBERG: So it is not -- it is not --
21 THE COURT: A section --
22 MR. WEINBERG: -- a section or anything. It is
23 just --
24 THE COURT: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: I stand corrected.
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1 THE COURT: So I let in 163, was that right?
2 MR. LIROT: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Now we're on 164?
4 MR. LIROT: We're on 164 now, Judge.
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
7 marked as Exhibit 164 and ask if you can identify that for
8 the Court.
9 A Yes, this is an HCO policy letter of 25 April,
10 1968 entitled "Intelligence Actions."
11 Q And was this one of the documents you were
12 required to be familiar with as part of your OSA training
13 and accreditation?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
16 164 into evidence.
17 THE COURT: I thought it already was.
18 MR. WEINBERG: That would be a good example,
19 Judge, of a document not for general release if you
20 look at the corner, of why we would have an
21 objection to it being taken without the authority of
22 the Church.
23 THE COURT: All right. You will raise that
24 again --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
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1 MR. LIROT: Judge, the next two exhibits, 165
2 and 166, as I understand it these have already been
3 entered. And I believe they were 8 and 9. These
4 were entered early on, I think when Ms. Brooks was
5 testifying.
6 THE COURT: I don't object to them being
7 introduced again as far as a part of this packet if
8 he got both of them.
9 But did you get both of them?
10 THE WITNESS: I haven't gotten either of them.
11 MR. LIROT: I'm going to hand those up right
12 now, Judge.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Can you identify those documents for the Court,
15 Mr. Oliver?
16 A Yes. One is a document entitled "Penalties for
17 Lower Conditions."
18 And the -- it is dated HCO policy letter 18
19 October, 1967.
20 The other policy letter is dated 21 October, 1968
21 entitled "Cancellation of Fair Game."
22 Q "Penalties for Lower Conditions," is that just
23 another way -- I guess fancy way of saying this is what we
24 do with critics or enemies of Scientology?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: Sustained. The objection is that
2 you told him what the answer is.
3 MR. LIROT: All right.
4 BY MR. LIROT:
5 Q Look at Exhibit 165 and tell me what that is,
6 Mr. Oliver.
7 A It's -- it seems to be what the penalties would be
8 for an individual that would be assigned a lower condition
9 in the condition formulas -- and the conditions as assigned
10 in Scientology: Liability, treason, doubt and enemy. And
11 next to the condition, it shows what the penalty would be
12 for that.
13 Q And the penalties for an enemy?
14 A It says "SP order." SP meaning suppressive
15 person. "Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured
16 by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of
17 the Scientologist, may be tricked, sued or lied to or
18 destroyed."
19 MR. WEINBERG: I object to this particular
20 document. As you know, there has been a
21 cancellation and another explanation and all this
22 after that, as you know, about the fair game.
23 MR. LIROT: I was just about to get to it,
24 Judge.
25 THE COURT: Yes, this has been the subject of
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1 quite a bit of discussion in this hearing. There
2 has also been some discussion on the next document
3 and whether or not this cancellation of fair game
4 applies to the handling of an SP. So I understand
5 your objection. I think you made it before. And
6 I'll have to decide how I'll rule on that at some
7 point in time.
8 MR. LIROT: Obviously, Judge, this one has
9 already been entered, so I'll not reenter it --
10 THE COURT: Well, you can if, in fact, it is
11 part of --
12 MR. LIROT: I'll move these two into evidence
13 as part of this packet.
14 THE COURT: Did you get both of them?
15 THE WITNESS: I received information in -- I
16 actually had to put my pack together when I
17 originally got it when it was originally given to
18 me, because at the time I was in the Office of
19 Special Affairs in Los Angeles was the first time
20 they had actually created that pack.
21 I was supposed to receive my pack in my org in
22 Miami. And I was told by my senior to wait until I
23 got to Los Angeles and they would give me a
24 brand-new pack. In the meanwhile, she assisted me
25 in finding policy letters that were part of, you
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1 know, that pack and the information I needed to do
2 my job.
3 So she gave me a lot of different issues --
4 gave them to me in a folder.
5 THE COURT: Were these both in there?
6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I believe both of these were
7 at the time, yes.
8 This -- this part down here on this particular
9 document, it has been admitted into evidence, that
10 particular part wasn't in it. I just want to clear
11 that up because that wasn't part of what I was
12 given.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Well, Mr. Oliver, let me draw your attention to
15 Exhibit 166. You have seen this document before,
16 "Cancellation of Fair Game."
17 I'll read for the record. It says: "The practice
18 of declaring people fair game will cease. Fair game may not
19 appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public
20 relations."
21 The paragraph below -- the one-sentence paragraph
22 says: "This policy letter --" which I understand the
23 abbreviation "PL" to stand for "-- does not cancel any
24 policy on the treatment or handling of an SP."
25 So what is your understanding of that?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q Does the declaration still exist, and treatment
4 and handling stay the same?
5 MR. WEINBERG: In essence, what he's asking him
6 is to explain fair game. And I think it's
7 inappropriate.
8 There is a long history between 1968 and --
9 '67 -- or whatever the date is on that document he's
10 looking at in front of him -- '68 I think it
11 originally cancelled it -- and 2002, including
12 Mr. Hubbard's affidavit which is in evidence in
13 1976, the new policy that was, you know, further
14 explained, and made it absolutely clear that fair
15 game was -- had been long since gone and it was
16 being misinterpreted in 1980.
17 This man is not an expert, nor could he be
18 qualified as one. And he should not be talking
19 about a policy that -- and his understanding of a
20 policy -- that hasn't been in existence since 1968
21 or '7, whatever the date was.
22 THE COURT: I think --
23 MR. LIROT: Well --
24 THE COURT: Go ahead.
25 MR. LIROT: We can explore that, Judge.
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1 BY MR. LIROT:
2 Q Let me ask you something. In your
3 responsibilities as an investigative arm of OSA, as part of
4 that, you dealt with people that were declared SPs, is that
5 true?
6 A Yes. There were individuals that were declared
7 that were targets or subjects of the investigative work that
8 I did.
9 Q So part of what your responsibilities were that
10 you dealt with, people that were labeled critics or enemies
11 or suppressive persons, that was part of what OSA dealt
12 with?
13 A That is part of what OSA dealt with. That is what
14 I dealt with when I was there.
15 Q In dealing with those people, regardless of what
16 declaration was made or what label you put on them, was it
17 part of OSA policies, in respect to your responsibilities,
18 that they could be tricked, sued or lied to?
19 A From what I observed and from what I participated
20 in, Mmm, there were -- there were things -- and I won't
21 speak in specifics because the judge told me not to speak in
22 specifics --
23 THE COURT: No, I don't mind you speaking in
24 specifics. I don't want a lot of -- once I learn
25 this thing hits the Internet every night,
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1 apparently, it bothers me a little bit that
2 specifics -- if people are named -- that this --
3 this -- you know, this could be painful to the
4 Church, it could be painful to the individuals.
5 So I guess what I'm saying, you can be
6 specific. But I don't want you to identify
7 necessarily a person who may be affected by the fact
8 this is going to be posted all over the Internet. I
9 don't mean to say you can't be specific. I just
10 would like not to have specific names --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Part of our objection, of
12 course, was to the extent he was working on cases,
13 which is what he testified these were.
14 And that is no different than Mr. Dandar
15 objecting to my being able to talk to Ray Emmons,
16 his investigator, or any other member of his office,
17 or Mr. Dandar being able to talk to somebody in my
18 office. I mean --
19 THE COURT: Are you asserting a privilege?
20 What is it?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, to the extent that he
22 would discuss what he was doing with regard to a
23 legal case, yes, if that is what he was doing. And
24 I think that is what he testified to, whenever it
25 was, yesterday. That is what they did. They worked
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1 on legal cases.
2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think his testimony was
3 that was only a component of his responsibility.
4 THE COURT: That is what I thought, too.
5 MR. LIROT: And my question so far -- I haven't
6 asked him about any specific case, legal or
7 otherwise. I'm asking him about concepts --
8 MR. WEINBERG: You didn't hear me object. The
9 question was have you -- have you -- I think it was
10 ever lied, sued or -- I forget the third one.
11 THE WITNESS: Tricked.
12 MR. LIROT: Tricked, sued, lied to or
13 destroyed.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is a new category.
15 MR. LIROT: I was going to get to that one.
16 THE COURT: Sued? This man probably never sued
17 a soul in his life.
18 You never sued anybody, have you?
19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, I never sued
20 anybody.
21 THE COURT: So that is out.
22 What are you asking him, did he ever trick
23 anybody?
24 MR. LIROT: I'm asking him about the OSA
25 policies. Obviously, Judge, our position here is
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1 fair game -- maybe they peeled the label off the
2 outside of the jar, but the contents remain the
3 same. And if you read this, it is two paragraphs,
4 it says what it says. It doesn't take an expert to
5 take a look at this and say, "We're going to take
6 the declaration away but as far as the policy on the
7 treatment and handling, conduct that deals with SP,
8 that doesn't change a bit." And -- that doesn't
9 change a bit.
10 I'm asking Mr. Oliver, as a member of OSA,
11 whether anybody told him, "Oh, we can't trick people
12 anymore, and we're going to deprive people of
13 property, but if we catch you, you're going to be
14 punished."
15 I just want to explore that area as far as his
16 experience for the period of time that he worked
17 with OSA.
18 THE COURT: Then I'll not let him get into
19 specifics. But I'll let him get into general.
20 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. And I'll respect
21 that directive.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q While you were in OSA, do you know any
24 Scientologist or member of OSA that was disciplined for
25 depriving people of property?
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1 A Not to my knowledge. No.
2 Q Do you know anybody that was disciplined because
3 they injured somebody that was declared to be an enemy or
4 suppressive person of Scientology?
5 A Not to my knowledge at all.
6 Q All right. Was covert operations, and I guess
7 trickery, and obviously lying, part of that covert -- were
8 they ever disciplined? Were you ever told that was
9 something you couldn't do as a member of OSA?
10 A No.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor -- excuse
12 me, my objection --
13 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Covert operations -- we talked
15 about this yesterday. Mr. Lirot uses private
16 investigators. Mr. Dandar uses private
17 investigators. You did. I did.
18 So to ask a question like that, I mean, it is
19 so -- it is so general.
20 I mean, maybe the question is did you do
21 anything illegal, Mr. Oliver? That would be --
22 THE COURT: I think that some of that is fairly
23 obvious. As I said, if he was in a group that dealt
24 with investigations and some of it was covert, it is
25 not done in, necessarily, a truthful fashion.
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1 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. LIROT: Obviously, I don't want to be
4 misperceived in the questioning. I'm not concerned
5 about legality. I'm talking about the very concept
6 of cancelling a policy that in practice has never
7 been cancelled, from our perspective. I understand
8 there is a disagreement about this.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. What is that from
10 our perspective? I mean, the Church cancelled a
11 policy.
12 THE COURT: Do you know what?
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry?
14 THE COURT: I read a declaration last night --
15 I started to read it, and I read about halfway
16 through it, of Mr. Miscavige.
17 It is very obvious to me that this church has
18 been fighting with this for a long time. This is
19 not the first time this came up. So it is not clear
20 as a bell. Obviously, other judges have struggled
21 with it. And -- and obviously some judges have
22 ruled that it is a cancelled policy, and apparently
23 some have ruled it is not.
24 I haven't ruled yet. So, consequently -- I
25 mean, I can understand you get all upset if you
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1 want. But it is not clear as a bell that fair game
2 has been cancelled. It apparently is something that
3 goes on in every lawsuit.
4 MR. WEINBERG: No. What goes on in every
5 lawsuit is that we get accused of a policy that was
6 cancelled in 1968.
7 And -- and I don't believe that Mr. Oliver, and
8 I don't believe that anyone in recent times, has
9 been qualified to testify about fair game.
10 MR. LIROT: Well --
11 THE COURT: You know what? I'll qualify him,
12 if that is what it takes.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm not asking to you do
14 that.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Oliver, were you permitted, as
16 a member of OSA, to lie to a suppressive person?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Were you permitted as a suppressive
19 person to trick -- I'm sorry, were you permitted to
20 trick a suppressive person while you worked for OSA?
21 THE WITNESS: I was permitted to do things that
22 involved trickery in order to obtain information
23 from those individuals.
24 THE COURT: What years were those behaviors?
25 THE WITNESS: Between 1990 and '92 when I left.
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1 THE COURT: Were you permitted -- were you
2 permitted to destroy a person?
3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I was never given the
4 assignment to destroy anyone.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 THE WITNESS: I was given the assignment to
7 help destroy an organization, though, that was -- an
8 organization that was identified as being a
9 suppressive organization, yes. I was involved in
10 the destruction of an organization.
11 THE COURT: So whether or not we call it fair
12 game or whether we call it nothing, the fact of the
13 matter is, is when you were dealing with
14 investigative matters, you were permitted to trick
15 an enemy and you were permitted to lie to an enemy?
16 THE WITNESS: Correct.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So I don't know that it
18 matters what we call it. As a matter of fact, we
19 won't need to call it fair game, if the fair game
20 policy has been cancelled. And this doesn't
21 surprise me, by the way. I mean, intelligence deals
22 with trickery and it deals with lies sometimes.
23 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think it mistakes --
24 it clearly says it doesn't cancel any policy. And I
25 keep hearing we've cancelled the policy. That is
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1 exactly the opposite of what the document says.
2 It says the practice of declaring people fair
3 game will cease. That is the cancellation. The
4 sentence below that says this doesn't cancel any
5 policy.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well then --
7 THE COURT: We'll argue that at a later time.
8 MR. LIROT: Fair enough.
9 THE COURT: I simply wanted to get through this
10 testimony that -- I don't care what the end result
11 is as far as if you are trying to establish that as
12 a member of OSA doing investigative work, it is all
13 right to lie and trick the enemy, that that
14 happened, no matter whether you call it -- whatever
15 you call it.
16 Those two documents will be admitted.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
19 marked as Exhibits 167, 168 and 169 and ask if you can
20 identify those for the Court.
21 THE COURT: The reason I brought up
22 Mr. Miscavige's affidavit is because he goes into
23 some great detail about this fair game and how
24 you-all are constantly having to deal with it and
25 what have you. So I assumed I wasn't the first
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1 judge --
2 MR. WEINBERG: No, I think that was the reason
3 for Mr. Hubbard's affidavit in '76 or whenever it
4 was.
5 THE COURT: Clearly Mr. Miscavige, in the
6 lawsuit, whatever that affidavit was for, that was
7 not the first time it was dealt with by the Church.
8 MR. WEINBERG: That was the Wollersheim
9 whatever.
10 What are these exhibits?
11 MR. LIROT: 167, 168 and 169.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q Can you identify Exhibit 167 for the Court,
14 Mr. Oliver?
15 A Yes, I can. It is an HCO policy letter dated
16 March 1, 1965. The title is "Justice. Suppressive Acts,
17 Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game
18 Law."
19 Q If you turn to the fourth page of that particular
20 exhibit --
21 THE COURT: Which one is it now?
22 MR. LIROT: This is 167, Judge.
23 BY MR. LIROT:
24 Q I don't know if all copies are highlighted but
25 down toward the bottom it says "Rights of a Suppressive
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1 Person or Group."
2 THE COURT: That isn't even on my Page 4.
3 MR. LIROT: On 167?
4 THE COURT: Mine is on Page 3. One, two,
5 three.
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, you must be missing a page.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. LIROT: I'll exchange --
9 THE COURT: Whoops, I'm sorry. I just found --
10 I found Page 2. You are right. The bottom of Page
11 4.
12 A Yes. It says: "Rights of a suppressive person or
13 group --"
14 THE COURT: By the way, those questions I asked
15 him don't require expert testimony, you know.
16 When you worked there, were you permitted to --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. I understand.
18 A "A truly suppressive person or group has no rights
19 of any kind. And actions taken against them are not
20 punishable."
21 BY MR. LIROT:
22 Q Do you know of any policy letter that cancelled
23 this particular policy letter?
24 A Not to my knowledge.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, my objection is
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1 that this policy letter, which was written in 1965,
2 refers to fair game. And we've just had, several
3 years later, a -- a policy that cancels fair game.
4 So -- so I make that objection for the record.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
7 167 into evidence.
8 THE COURT: It will be received.
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q Mr. Oliver, can you identify Exhibit 168 to the
11 Court?
12 A Yes, I can. This is an article -- actually, a
13 page from an article on Level 0 check sheet. It is undated.
14 And it talks in here about -- this is a reiteration of the
15 same type of -- this particular paragraph is in other
16 places, as well. It is in another policy letter. It's in
17 another piece of information that is in the pack that I
18 think is the next exhibit. And it appears here.
19 It's a repetition of things that have been pulled
20 out of here and are used elsewhere, which is talking about
21 the offense of anything being untenable, the only way to
22 defend anything is to attack.
23 This is reflected in other policies letters. I
24 can't quote you specific name or date of the policy letters
25 but they have already been introduced in evidence earlier.
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1 This is just another place where it appears.
2 The statement of never be interested in --
3 basically to never take an offensive position -- I mean
4 never take defensive position, to always take an offensive
5 position and to always attack and never have to defend. You
6 know, basically take the -- take the wind out of the sail of
7 the enemy by attacking them so that they are on the defense
8 and you are on the offense. Very pro -- it is a very
9 proactive stance.
10 THE COURT: Sounds like pretty good advice,
11 doesn't it, if you are going to do an investigation?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, if -- you know, the way
13 that I saw it work, if someone is making a criticism
14 of the -- of the Scientology organization, instead
15 of, you know, dealing with that criticism and trying
16 to explain to the person how their criticism is
17 unfounded, what the organization would do, what the
18 Office of Special Affairs would do would be to find
19 something on that individual and attack them,
20 instead of replying to the original -- almost like
21 if you filed a lawsuit against somebody, instead of
22 addressing those issues, you -- you know, you come
23 back with something else completely unrelated, it
24 throws the other person off. So instead of
25 addressing the issue of why that person is saying
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1 something critical, they just go off and find
2 something about the individual, try to investigate
3 them to get them on the defensive, not to address
4 the issue raised in the first place because it may
5 prove to be that the other -- that the individual
6 attacking is correct. And that is the last thing
7 that Scientology would want to happen.
8 BY MR. LIROT:
9 Q What about the OSA policies about their
10 participation in lawsuits -- no specific lawsuit -- but I'm
11 referring to Page 55 where it is highlighted about how the
12 law can be used?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, mine isn't
14 highlighted. So I don't know what he's talking
15 about.
16 THE COURT: Mine is highlighted, but I have
17 seen this in the policy letter in evidence already.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, mine is highlighted.
19 A It says: "The law can be used very easily to
20 harass. And enough harassment on somebody who is simply on
21 the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he's not authorized,
22 will generally be sufficient to cause his professional
23 decease, if possible, of course, ruin him utterly."
24 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move 168
25 into evidence.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: I do object to this. I would
2 like to know what it is from, the whole thing in
3 context --
4 THE COURT: I tell you what. I have problems
5 with this for several reasons.
6 Number one, I don't know what it is. It says
7 "Magazine articles on Level 0." I don't know what
8 Level 0 is. It does say: "Do not remove when --"
9 and it has somebody, "Hubble, valuable document,"
10 and it is really sort of just a page out of -- I
11 mean Page 54 and 55. I mean, Level 0, I don't know
12 what Level 0 is. Page 54 and 55 -- I mean, on these
13 policy letters, I can see the whole policy letter.
14 This is just two pages.
15 So I have problems with this. I'm not going to
16 allow this in.
17 MR. LIROT: All right.
18 THE COURT: But as I said, I had seen this in a
19 policy letter maybe. But that is out.
20 BY MR. LIROT:
21 Q Mr. Oliver, take a look at Exhibit 169 and
22 identify that document for the Court.
23 A This is called -- this is out of Ability. It
24 says: "The Scientologist, a manual on the dissemination of
25 material." And it says "Circa 1955, mid-March."
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1 Q Is this one of the documents you had to
2 familiarize yourself with? And is this part of your hat
3 pack?
4 A Well, this was actually something that was given
5 to me as part of the packet of information that was given to
6 me by J.C. Pase in the DSA's Office in Miami.
7 And on Page -- I guess Page 152, if you can read
8 it, the exact same thing that was in that last exhibit is
9 actually in here, as well.
10 Q And this was given to you and expressed to you to
11 be familiar with as part of the dispatch of your
12 responsibilities for OSA?
13 A Correct. And the two paragraphs that I read
14 before, which are also in here, they also appear in other
15 policy letters that I believe have been entered into
16 evidence, as well. So it just shows that it is in more than
17 just one place, it is a lot of different places that that
18 point is reiterated.
19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
20 169 into evidence.
21 THE COURT: It will be received.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q As part of your training in Scientology and your
24 requirement that you familiarize yourself with these
25 policies, is it accepted or taught that a policy is valid
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1 until there is actually a cancellation of that policy if it
2 is one of L. Ron Hubbard's policies?
3 A Well, I joined the organization in 1986. And
4 Mr. Hubbard had died earlier, I believe, in that year. And
5 subsequent to that, any policies and anything that I have
6 ever read in Scientology, the only individual that can
7 cancel a policy in Scientology would be L. Ron Hubbard
8 himself.
9 There was a period of time in which some new
10 issues came out that basically revised policy. And it was
11 told to us -- it was told to the staff members that this was
12 work that Mr. Hubbard had written and hadn't been published
13 yet, and it changed certain policies in the organization, it
14 revised them and it showed the revisions, for example, in
15 script in some cases for older policies, and for newer
16 policies they just show -- after the date, there is a number
17 that shows that the policy has been revised. If it has been
18 revised one, there is an "R." And there are other sequences
19 for things that come later.
20 But the only person allowed to change anything in
21 Scientology would be L. Ron Hubbard. His word -- that was
22 it. No one can change anything. And that point is hammered
23 in every single course in Scientology. The first policy
24 letter is called KSW-1, which is Keeping Scientology
25 Working. And every course you do in Scientology, no matter
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1 what, that policy letter is the first thing.
2 And that is something that Hubbard wrote where he
3 points out that in the past when, you know, he tried to get
4 input from other people, it hasn't worked out for him, so he
5 would be the only person that could write policy, change
6 policy, and any deviation from policy is something that, you
7 know, needed to be handled and hammered out of existence,
8 you know, to quote his own words.
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move 169
10 into evidence.
11 THE COURT: It will be received.
12 MR. LIROT: All right.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
15 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 170 and ask if you can
16 identify that for the Court.
17 A This is information -- full hat. This is from the
18 Guardian's Office. This is dated 1974; 9 September, 1974.
19 This is the intelligence course for the Guardian's Office.
20 Q Have you had a chance to review this document?
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q And does this compare to the full hat or the hat
23 for OSA when you were handed that particular -- what I'll
24 call -- a checklist document when you were made part of OSA
25 in the early '90s?
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1 A When I reviewed this document, I found many
2 consistencies in that a lot of the policies in this document
3 here appear in my check sheet in 1991. Many of the policies
4 are very similar. I mean, they're exactly the same,
5 actually. They're located in different locations throughout
6 the check sheet.
7 However the policies that were in my pack that was
8 printed in 1991 have the same information in many places
9 that appear in this particular hat pack that was from the
10 old Guardian's Office that was in 1974.
11 THE COURT: It was based on one of the first
12 documents that we went over yesterday?
13 THE WITNESS: The check sheet, the original --
14 THE COURT: The check sheet?
15 THE WITNESS: The investigations officer hat
16 pack?
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: This would be the predecessor to
19 that.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think that was Exhibit 143
22 was the one that was compared to that one.
23 Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 170 into
24 evidence.
25 THE COURT: I'm going to receive it.
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1 Obviously, he was not presented this.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I was not, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: However, I'm going to let this be
4 admitted only from the standpoint of see whether
5 what he's saying is accurate or not.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, your Honor, I do want to
7 point out, first of all, all GO policy orders were
8 cancelled.
9 Secondly, there is a forgery in this. It has
10 been disseminated numerous times. It is called
11 Intelligence Specialist Training Routine, TRL, in
12 here.
13 It's equivalent, your Honor, to the
14 dissemination of something like the protocols of the
15 elders of Zion --
16 THE COURT: What?
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Protocols of the elders of
18 Zion, a forgery used to defame the Jewish religion.
19 It is even being done today.
20 This is a forgery. And we object to its
21 admission.
22 MR. LIROT: Maybe counsel can identify what
23 portions of it are forged.
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: The entire thing. And it has
25 been used in this way for years, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. I'm going to
2 keep it out for now. However, I think you're going
3 to have to call somebody -- it would have some
4 relevance -- the relevance it might have would be
5 whether or not the Office of Special Affairs was, in
6 essence -- as has been testified to by some folks --
7 the same thing as the Guardian's Office.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, this wasn't
9 even the Guardian's Office.
10 THE COURT: Wait, I haven't finished.
11 So there may be some relevance to this document
12 to see if, in fact, what this witness says -- what
13 this witness says is true. However, clearly,
14 obviously, if this is a forged document, it has no
15 relevance at all. But I just can't say it is a
16 forged document because you tell me that.
17 In other words, just put somebody on the stand.
18 You have a man right there to say this is a forged
19 document. I'll take his word for it.
20 MR. WEINBERG: But isn't it his responsibility
21 to authenticate it?
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: He says this was from 1974. He
23 can't authenticate something he says was from 1974.
24 THE COURT: How did you get this?
25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, your Honor?
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1 THE COURT: This is some document that was
2 introduced in a court trial.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Do you know where this came from?
5 THE WITNESS: From my understanding, it came
6 from a court trial.
7 THE COURT: Did you get this when you were in
8 Scientology?
9 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: So you did not -- I mean, you were
11 not ever presented this?
12 THE WITNESS: When I was in Scientology?
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: This will not be received.
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: I thought he said he got it and
18 made some comparisons. Now that I understand --
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, your Honor. He got it from
20 someplace. But --
21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm sure we can get an
22 original with an appropriate request for production.
23 So I guess we can hand that out later.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Huh?
25
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1 BY MR. LIROT:
2 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to present you with a
3 document that we marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 171 and ask
4 you if you can identify this for the Court.
5 A Yes. This is an HCO ethics order. It says,
6 "Suppressive Person Declare." It says "Frank Oliver." And
7 it is dated "16 November, 1992."
8 Q I guess this is what they give you after you have
9 been identified as a person that no longer wants to be a
10 member of Scientology?
11 A Well, when somebody has been identified as being a
12 suppressive person. In my particular case, I did no longer
13 want to be a member of Scientology at that point. Correct.
14 Q Well, what was the reason that -- I guess this
15 document will speak for itself. But for the record, can you
16 explain what the issues were that were identified in this
17 Suppressive Person Declare?
18 A Mmm, this was -- this was something I received
19 last time I was in the Church of Scientology. I had -- I
20 had -- I had wanted to leave Scientology and wanted to do it
21 the right way. And I had gotten on a Leaving Staff Routing
22 Form sometime prior to October of '92.
23 And when I made that assertion to my senior,
24 immediately it raised -- you know, raised eyebrows and
25 created a big stir because of the fact I had been in the
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1 Office of Special Affairs.
2 And the first thing I was asked for were, you
3 know, "Give me the keys to the building," basically because
4 I had the keys to the organization, as well because of my
5 position in the organization. And I gladly turned over my
6 keys.
7 And I was told that in order to do the routing
8 form, I had to come in and do what are called OWs. OW --
9 THE COURT: Overt withholds.
10 THE WITNESS: You got it.
11 MR. LIROT: Pretty good.
12 THE WITNESS: You are getting good, Judge.
13 A So they made me come in and start writing OWs.
14 And there was some documents that I had that were part of a
15 project that I had worked on when I was in -- in the Office
16 of Special Affairs. And it took me a week from the time
17 that I went, until the following time I showed up again, I
18 was asked to bring those documents in, which I did bring in
19 and is referenced to in this -- in this declare order. The
20 documents that I was asked to return I returned.
21 Mmm, the final time I walked in, they just handed
22 this thing to me. I mean, I was never given a Committee of
23 Evidence or any of the other normal justice procedures
24 involved when someone goes to leave the organization. They
25 just basically, you know, said, "Here, good-bye."
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1 And they delineate what they think are the reasons
2 why they wanted to declare me. And the big crime that,
3 according to them, I had committed was I wanted to leave.
4 That was my high crime, that I wanted to leave. And they
5 said I was making secret plans, and as stated here.
6 However, there was no secret about it. Everyone
7 in the organization knew it. They had me on the Leaving
8 Staff Routing Form. There was no secret behind me wanting
9 to leave. I said I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be
10 part of it anymore, and that was it.
11 But they chose to declare me and --
12 THE COURT: This was given to you?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: So this is certainly not a stolen
15 document.
16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. I don't have any
17 stolen documents.
18 THE COURT: Well, this certainly isn't one if
19 they gave you a copy of it.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, given it to me
21 by Eric Tyler Arnet, who is the director of
22 Investigative Reports of the Miami org. His name is
23 on the document, as well.
24 BY MR. LIROT:
25 Q Well, I guess whether we call it fair game or not,
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1 were the policies that you were asked to participate in as
2 part of OSA part of the reason you wanted to leave
3 Scientology?
4 A Yes. I -- I started -- because of the fact that
5 people in the Office of Special Affairs are basically the
6 external facing unit, they're the ones on the front line,
7 they're the ones taking all of the suppressive intake, if
8 you will, all that suppressive activity they claim is
9 suppressive out there, we're the ones on the front line and
10 we're to keep that from disturbing or bothering the
11 organization.
12 So, because of that, we were exposed to a lot of
13 information I was told by OSA was false and untrue.
14 Anything critical of the organization was false and untrue,
15 and that these people that we were investigating were
16 criminals, and that they held people against their will, and
17 they were kidnappers. And that was the impetus that kept me
18 in the organization as long as it kept me.
19 When I finally started to see and realize these
20 things being told to me were lies, they were fabrications,
21 and I was involved in something I didn't want to be involved
22 in anymore.
23 THE COURT: What things that were being told to
24 you?
25 THE WITNESS: I was told, for example --
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1 THE COURT: No, you indicated that you were
2 being told things, you were learning things from the
3 outside, and you were being told they were lies.
4 THE WITNESS: I was being told -- for example,
5 I was told that an individual -- I won't name him --
6 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. You were being told
7 they were lies. I take it this was by the OSA unit?
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 THE COURT: Now then, you said you then
10 realized they were lies?
11 THE WITNESS: Correct.
12 THE COURT: What were lies? Which?
13 THE WITNESS: The things they were telling me
14 about the outside individuals were lies.
15 THE COURT: Things that OSA was telling you
16 were lies?
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 THE WITNESS: I later discovered them to be
20 lies, and even -- I found out even more things that
21 I didn't know, outside, once I left Scientology. I
22 found out even more about it.
23 But I didn't become vocal about it until years
24 later. I mean, it took me many years. I -- I
25 didn't express my -- Mmm -- my personal feelings
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1 until many years later.
2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
3 171 into evidence.
4 THE COURT: It will be received.
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
7 marked as Exhibit 172 and ask if you can identify this for
8 the Court.
9 A Yes, your Honor. This is an executive directive
10 dated 10 September, 1991. It is suppressive persons and
11 suppressive groups list.
12 Q I guess up in the upper left-hand corner -- this
13 isn't confidential, it doesn't say non-remimeo, this goes to
14 everybody, all EOs and --
15 A "EO" is ethics officers. All orgs and missions.
16 This is a Flag executive directive Number 2830.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, it only goes to
18 ethics officers in the orgs and missions. Mr. Lirot
19 just said it went everywhere. That is not true. It
20 went to one position.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 A This was also given to me as part of the
23 information in Scientology. It was given to me by my senior
24 directly. She handed this to me and said, "You have to know
25 who these people are because these are the people and
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1 organizations, these are the other -- these are other
2 churches that we have identified as suppressive. These are
3 other people we've identified, other groups that we consider
4 to be suppressive."
5 And these are basically -- basically, this is --
6 this is a lot of work for an investigations officer who has
7 these individuals in their vicinity or under their area.
8 "These are the people that we keep tabs on. And
9 if they become active against the organization, these are
10 the people that we investigate and go after."
11 BY MR. LIROT:
12 Q Okay, so this breaks down --
13 THE COURT: Is this in alphabetical order?
14 THE WITNESS: It is in somewhat of order. This
15 is exactly the way it was give to me, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q What -- I guess there are different types of SPs
19 in this document. What are those?
20 A Well, there are some people in here that are --
21 well, everyone in here is an SP per the document. And some
22 people in here are either declared and some are actually
23 expelled, which means they can never go back into
24 Scientology, and some are groups identified as suppressive
25 groups that could be -- that were subject to investigation
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1 by the Office of Special Affairs.
2 You know, "S," for example, is identified in here
3 as an organization to be investigated as being a suppressive
4 organization.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I object because that is not
6 what the document says. The second sentence says:
7 "It is for your use to safeguard the lines of your
8 org or mission and to ensure that these individuals
9 or members of these groups are not connected to or
10 on the lines of your org or mission in any way."
11 That is what it says. It doesn't say investigate or
12 anything like that.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Oliver. I think
15 your testimony yesterday was that different groups get
16 different directives.
17 Do ethics groups get all of the directives that
18 OSA gets?
19 A No, they don't. But OSA gets everything OSA
20 wants. Within the organization, there were orders -- there
21 were orders that came down that would go to Ethics that we
22 would see, that we would get a copy of in the Department of
23 Special Affairs in Miami.
24 Q So what is the significance of this list to an OSA
25 member, regardless of what impact it might have or what
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1 directives would have been given to an ethics officer?
2 A Well, an ethics officer wouldn't -- it is directed
3 at an ethics officer in the routing, so that, as
4 Mr. Weinberg read into the record, if someone was connected
5 to one of these organizations and it became an ethics matter
6 for that person in the organization and they went to Ethics,
7 the ethics officer would go look at this list. That was his
8 purpose for having this document.
9 Our purposes were to have an identification of
10 enemy groups, suppressive people and suppressive groups
11 because these are the things directly related to the
12 statistics of an investigations officer in the Department of
13 Special Affairs in a Class IV org.
14 These are -- if there were four -- if there is an
15 S group -- I'll give you an example -- identified in here
16 and there were four locations in Miami, let's say, then
17 those four things appear on my stats every week until
18 handled. So if their name is on this list, of course how
19 did I know there were four S groups? I can look on this
20 list and see there are four S groups and I know that they
21 are part of -- they are part of my subjects I have to
22 investigate.
23 Q So I guess based on the instructions given to you
24 as a member of OSA, this is the list of different groups and
25 different people that could be tricked, lied to or destroyed
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1 as part of your responsibilities in OSA?
2 A That was -- it was my understanding --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form, your
4 Honor.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 What could happen -- well, let's just not go
7 there.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q How do you pick up stats off this list?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered.
12 He asked him yesterday about stats.
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Then he explained it.
15 MR. LIROT: Well -- I didn't mean to interrupt.
16 THE COURT: Do you get different kinds of
17 points for this list?
18 THE WITNESS: You get different kind of
19 points if -- for example, when this list was handed
20 down, if there is something on this list not on your
21 stats, you know, and it affects you, if there is
22 something identified here that wouldn't be on the
23 list -- the way it actually worked is we were the
24 ones that identified these organizations in the
25 different orgs at the different levels in
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1 Scientology throughout OSA, and then they compiled a
2 list from those things.
3 So basically how it worked is the information
4 that we were supplying up the lines was used to help
5 compile this list. As information flows upward they
6 compiled it and it flowed all back down because I
7 wouldn't know of something going on in Michigan, for
8 example. But on this list there may be a group or
9 person from Michigan. However, if somebody from
10 Michigan happened to come into my area, I can look
11 on the list and see their name and say, okay, these
12 guys have been identified as an SP somewhere else.
13 He may not have been on my stat that week --
14 THE COURT: What do you mean, your stat?
15 THE WITNESS: "Stat" is statistic.
16 THE COURT: No, I know that. And I know you
17 told us yesterday about stats are important and --
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: -- you need to make certain stats.
20 And the more you make, the better.
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 THE COURT: What do you mean, there is a stat
23 on this list?
24 THE WITNESS: There is not a stat on the list.
25 The individuals -- for example, if there were five
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1 individuals that were -- I determined to be
2 suppressive and they were in the area in Miami, for
3 example, where I was an investigations officer --
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: -- those five peoples' names
6 would be on the list. That list would be five
7 people. And the stat might have -- like it would
8 have a 0 at the top -- it would be an upside-down
9 stat, a 0 at the top and, let's say, 10 at the
10 bottom. So if the stat is going up toward 0, that
11 is a good thing, the stat is going up and the goal
12 is to be 0, to have 0 suppressive people in your
13 vicinity.
14 So if a suppressive group or individual was on
15 this list -- or -- or I compiled the information of
16 five suppressive people, I would send the
17 information up and it would appear on a list like
18 this.
19 However, if someone from another area, let's
20 say John Smith, to make up a name, from California,
21 moves to Miami, now I have to add John Smith to my
22 stats as another person that is suppressive. So I
23 now have six suppressive people in my vicinity, so
24 my stat goes down because there are more suppressive
25 people in my area. So as more suppressive people
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1 get near or affect the organization, it is worse for
2 the people in investigation than in OSA because that
3 means they are not being effective in stopping the
4 people. So it is a bad thing.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q How do you -- for the sake of example, the
8 Catholic Apostolic Church & Monastery is a stat for your
9 org. How do you get that removed as a suppressive person or
10 get it off the list?
11 MR. WEINBERG: I object to this -- to this -- I
12 object to the form, I object to this whole line.
13 How do you get it removed?
14 THE COURT: I might object to what does it have
15 to do with this case. I mean, that is a question
16 for you, Mr. Lirot.
17 MR. LIROT: Judge, again, this goes to the
18 policies, practices and customs of OSA.
19 THE COURT: Well, it might be of some -- I
20 mean, how do you get it off your list for the --
21 whatever it is -- Catholic -- I mean, why don't you
22 ask him how to get Bob Minton off the list?
23 MR. WEINBERG: I object to that particular
24 question because he wasn't there.
25 MR. LIROT: Then I guess I'll just use an
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1 individual on the list.
2 THE COURT: There you go.
3 BY MR. LIROT:
4 Q Assuming that Bob Minton is on the list of
5 suppressive persons, which I guess subsequent to
6 Mr. Oliver's departure from OSA is probably the subject of
7 judicial notice --
8 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
9 THE COURT: If an individual is on the list,
10 how do you get them off the list?
11 THE WITNESS: The person is handled.
12 THE COURT: How do you handle it?
13 THE WITNESS: Let's say if there is an
14 identified group on here, you get them shut down and
15 wiped out of existence.
16 THE COURT: I'm not talking about a group. I'm
17 talking about an individual.
18 THE WITNESS: You get them to stop attacking
19 the organization. They move away -- like, for
20 example, if John Smith were a suppressive in Miami,
21 and enough was -- he was being investigated and it
22 was upsetting or bothering him, and the guy moved to
23 Canada, then he's off my list, he's no longer one of
24 my stats, he becomes Canada Scientology problems.
25 It wouldn't be a Miami Scientology problem, it would
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1 be off my list.
2 THE COURT: On somebody else's list?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. If he continues to commit
4 suppressive acts or identifies suppressive acts as
5 Scientology identifies them against the
6 organization.
7 THE COURT: So to get him to move, you might
8 picket him?
9 THE WITNESS: I never -- I never picketed
10 anyone.
11 THE COURT: What did you do to get somebody off
12 the list?
13 THE WITNESS: We investigated the individual.
14 Mmm, we followed the individual. We did
15 surveillance on the individual. Mmm --
16 THE COURT: Did noisy investigation?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I did noisy
18 investigations. I looked at people's credit reports
19 and their personal phone bills.
20 THE COURT: The garbage?
21 THE WITNESS: Had investigators digging through
22 their garbage to find any information on them we
23 could garner to use in intelligence.
24 THE COURT: You use that frequent flier trick
25 you told us about yesterday to find out when they
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1 were coming to an airport?
2 THE WITNESS: Personally?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: No. It was done in front of me
5 so I could see how it was done.
6 THE COURT: Okay. And the idea is to get them
7 to either stop what they're doing or move so they're
8 not your problem?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, that would have been at my
10 level in the Miami org when I was in Miami, yes,
11 that is what I did there.
12 When I went to Los Angeles, I was involved in
13 other things of higher magnitude. I was involved in
14 surveillance. We were involved in calling --
15 getting -- obtaining copy of someone's phone bill
16 and calling the people on their phone bill to see
17 who they were communicating with.
18 Mmm, this is the part I have trouble with, your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: How did you get the phone bill?
21 THE WITNESS: That was handed to me by
22 Mr. Shaw.
23 THE COURT: What, the phone bill?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Then you were told to call these
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1 people?
2 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I was given the phone -- I
3 was given that and a credit record on an individual
4 who I won't name. And we were told to try and
5 identify who these -- who this person had been
6 calling based on a phone number list given.
7 THE COURT: With the phone numbers?
8 THE WITNESS: Correct.
9 THE COURT: Okay. That is more relevant.
10 BY MR. LIROT:
11 Q Well, would somebody like Mr. Dandar be an SP?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection to the question,
13 would somebody like Mr. Dandar be an SP.
14 THE COURT: Ask him if Mr. Dandar would be an
15 SP.
16 A Yes, Mr. Dandar would be an SP.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Prince would be an SP?
18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Prince would be an SP.
19 Ms. Greenway would be an SP. I believe that lady in
20 the back would be an SP. Mr. Lirot --
21 THE COURT: I don't know this lady, who she is.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know who she is.
23 THE COURT: I don't know if she would or not.
24 THE WITNESS: We met before.
25 I would be an SP. Anyone that would have
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1 anything adverse to Scientology would be an SP
2 because they would be in some way impeding or
3 inhibiting the expansion and growth of the
4 organization and putting the beliefs, individuals,
5 policies of Scientology in disrepute or to the
6 scrutiny of the public. That would be -- you would
7 be considered an SP.
8 THE COURT: Me? No.
9 THE WITNESS: You might be considered an SP,
10 your Honor, deciding -- depending how you rule.
11 THE COURT: I doubt that, but --
12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I don't even find
13 this funny, to tell you the truth. I don't think it
14 is amusing.
15 THE COURT: Maybe you don't find it funny. But
16 I think it is interesting to know who is an SP in
17 this courtroom and what might happen. I don't think
18 I'm an SP and I don't think I would be if I ruled in
19 a certain way.
20 I'll bet these critics would -- each and every
21 one would tell me I probably could be on a list.
22 You wouldn't find that funny. They would say it was
23 true.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I was talking about the comment
25 about you I didn't find funny.
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1 THE COURT: Okay. But people would differ on
2 that is what I'm telling you.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I imagine they might have
4 some -- the people that are working against
5 Scientology might have some views of me and Mr. Shaw
6 and Mr. --
7 THE COURT: No question about that.
8 MR. WEINBERG: -- Mr. Fugate.
9 THE COURT: And if they use the term SP, you
10 would be one. And Mr. Shaw would be one.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I think --
12 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman would be one.
13 Mr. Fugate would be one.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I think there would be a little
15 more colorful language that would be used toward me.
16 MR. LIROT: I don't know of anybody doing the D
17 line on those folks, though, Judge. There is a big
18 difference there.
19 THE COURT: What is a D line?
20 THE WITNESS: A D line, that is when you send
21 an investigator to go into somebody's garbage.
22 A C line is when you pull a credit report. A D
23 line is garbage.
24 BY MR. LIROT:
25 Q If Mr. Dandar got disqualified off this case,
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1 would that work up some stats? Would that get him off the
2 SP list?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor, to the
4 form of the question. Objection to the question.
5 It just -- it is pure --
6 THE COURT: I'll allow it. I don't think the
7 form is objectionable because I think the answer is
8 yes or no. I don't know whether this witness is
9 capable of answering that.
10 MR. WEINBERG: It is pure speculation on the
11 part of this witness, first of all.
12 THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not. Did
13 you ever deal with any lawyers that were involved
14 against Scientology?
15 THE WITNESS: Did I deal with them personally?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: No, I never dealt with them
18 personally. I have seen attorneys that were
19 identified as SP because they were opposing counsel.
20 THE COURT: How did they get handled? By that
21 I mean what removed them from the list?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know that they were
23 removed? They weren't removed from the list when I
24 was there.
25 THE COURT: So you are incapable --
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1 THE WITNESS: How to get someone off? I just
2 have seen them on the list. I haven't seen them get
3 off.
4 THE COURT: He can't answer that. He doesn't
5 know the answer. He never worked with lawyers.
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
7 172 into evidence.
8 THE COURT: It will be received.
9 The Manual of Justice we already have, don't
10 we?
11 MR. DANDAR: I believe so, yes.
12 MR. SHAW: Yes, we do.
13 THE COURT: I'm pretty sure we do.
14 MR. LIROT: If it is already in evidence,
15 Judge, I'll just introduce it as being part of this
16 packet, it is already identified. And I'll move on.
17 THE COURT: It will be received as part of this
18 packet again. But I know it is in evidence. So
19 when you object to stolen documents, this is one
20 that is in already.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Again, it wasn't -- the
22 objection wasn't to necessarily the particular
23 policies. It was the manner in which they were
24 gotten.
25 THE COURT: I understand.
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1 BY MR. LIROT:
2 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
3 marked as Exhibit 174 and ask if you can identify that for
4 the Court.
5 A Yes, this is the -- this is the certificate,
6 "Church of Scientology Qualifications Division, Department
7 of Certification & Awards." And it says, "Frank Oliver,
8 Staff Status 2." And it is dated 18 April, 1991.
9 Q Do you have a series of different commendations
10 like this that you received from the Church?
11 A Mmm, this isn't -- a commendation would be not a
12 correct description of this. This is actually a certificate
13 at the completion of a course called Staff Status 2, which
14 is a permanent staff position.
15 This -- there are different staff statuses. When
16 you first join staff, your status is 0, then Staff Status 1,
17 then Staff Status 2. When you get to Staff Status 2, you
18 are considered a permanent staff member. And I guess your
19 pay is affected by what your particular staff status is.
20 And as you do administrative or executive courses in
21 Scientology, there are staff statuses above this.
22 In most of the -- or in the particular
23 organization that I was in, most of the staff were Staff
24 Status 2, except for some senior executives that had done
25 executive training called OEC FEBC.
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1 THE COURT: It must be late on Friday because,
2 frankly, I'm getting to the point --
3 MR. LIROT: It is 4 o'clock on the dot, Judge.
4 THE COURT: It is that time of the day. Go
5 ahead, let's see if we can get through the
6 documents.
7 MR. LIROT: Very well, Judge.
8 BY MR. LIROT:
9 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to show you what we'll mark
10 into evidence as 175.
11 MR. LIROT: I would like to move 174 into
12 evidence.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I have no problem with that,
14 Judge.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 BY MR. LIROT:
17 Q Mr. Oliver, identify 175 for the Court, please.
18 A It is actually two pages. These are copies of
19 telexes that I received.
20 The first one says --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, this is
22 clearly a document that should not have been
23 removed. This is with regard to a specific case.
24 THE COURT: Give me just a minute to read it.
25 What is DSA again?
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1 THE WITNESS: Department of Special Affairs.
2 THE COURT: Okay, I remember now. When
3 something is written "Dear Sir," who is that, who is
4 sir?
5 THE WITNESS: The person you are sending it to.
6 THE COURT: Well, tell me who that is. Is that
7 somebody within the OSA branch?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. The officers in the Office
9 of Special Affairs address themselves as sir when --
10 you know, when they are sending messages back and
11 forth.
12 In this particular case this came to the DSA
13 Miami -- it came, actually, to me, the second one.
14 Is that the one you are looking at, the second page?
15 THE COURT: Right.
16 THE WITNESS: That one came to me from west
17 Canada. You put "Dear sir." They refer to officers
18 as sir whether they are male or female. If it went
19 to the DSA, in my particular org, she was a woman,
20 it would still say "Dear sir."
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: These were both to me directly.
23 BY MR. LIROT:
24 Q What was the purpose in sending --
25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I'm reading this.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: My objection --
2 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge.
3 THE COURT: I need to decide whether this is
4 privileged and it should not be admitted.
5 It would appear to me this would be something
6 that would be a confidential document, Counselor.
7 MR. LIROT: Well, I don't know that it is,
8 Judge, and I would like to explore that with
9 Mr. Oliver for a moment, if you'll indulge me just
10 for a second.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, I -- I have
12 some real strong objections to this. This is as if
13 I went into Mr. --
14 THE COURT: I do, too, if it is confidential.
15 He said he wanted to explore that. I suppose it
16 would be whether or not he was mailed this after he
17 went home or it was somehow or another published
18 outside the Church.
19 MR. WEINBERG: This is with regard to -- to
20 litigation matters.
21 THE COURT: I agree. He said he didn't think
22 it was confidential. He wanted to explore it. So
23 we have to see if there is some basis upon which it
24 wouldn't become confidential.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And secondly, he had no
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