871
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 7
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.
17
DATE: July 10, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
7 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
8 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
9
10 MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
11 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
12 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
13 Organization.
14
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
15 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
16 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
17 Organization.
18
MR. HOWARD ROSS
19 Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
980 Tyrone Boulevard
20 St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
Counsel for Robert Minton.
21
22
23
24
25
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1 THE COURT: You may be seated.
2 All right. Mr. Weinberg, you may continue.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you, your Honor.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Now, Mr. Prince, you said earlier today -- we got
6 into this conversation -- that you didn't know until it was
7 too late basically, in March of 1987, that RTC had trustees.
8 That is what you said, right?
9 A Or the role of the trustees, how that operated
10 corporately. Yes, Mr. Weinberg.
11 Q And you didn't know, until the day you were
12 demoted, that David Miscavige was one of those trustees.
13 You didn't know that, either?
14 A Again, I didn't know the role of a trustee, what
15 they did. I didn't have the -- the idea of what they did.
16 Correct, Mr. Weinberg.
17 Q Well, let me show you a couple of documents that
18 we'll have the reporter mark -- reporter, the clerk.
19 MR. WEINBERG: This is our next document.
20 THE CLERK: 229.
21 MR. WEINBERG: This, your Honor, is 229.
22 And this one would be 230, right?
23 THE CLERK: Yes.
24 MR. WEINBERG: This, your Honor, is 230.
25
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Mr. Prince, this is 229. The thick one is 230.
3 A Okay. Is this stuff that I keep later?
4 Q Yes, we can just keep it here for the moment, and
5 then if there is any originals -- there is one --
6 THE COURT: If there are any copies, you can
7 keep them, or give them to Mr. Dandar, or --
8 MR. WEINBERG: I'll return these exhibits back
9 to the clerk.
10 THE COURT: If they're originals, you need to
11 be sure they get back to the clerk.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Before I forget, let me return
14 these exhibits for some reason I took.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q All right, now if you'll look at 229,
17 Mr. Prince --
18 A Is that this one right here?
19 Q That is the short run, Unanimous Written Consent
20 of the Directors and Trustees of the Religion Technology
21 Center.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you see that?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q And you see you executed that document as a
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1 director?
2 A Yes. Yes, sir, I see my signature on there.
3 Q You see the three trustees executed that document
4 as trustees, Lyman Spurlock, David Miscavige, and can you
5 read the last one?
6 A Mmm, David Miscavige is the last one, isn't it?
7 Q I think it is the second one.
8 A The second one is I think looks like Starkey.
9 Q David Miscavige is the last one. Do you know who
10 the second one is?
11 A Norman Starkey. And the first one is Lyman
12 Spurlock, I believe.
13 Q So certainly at that point in time you must have
14 been aware there were trustees?
15 A Mr. Weinberg, I'm going to say this and it may
16 sound incredible, but as a director, at least in this
17 corporation, Mr. McShane was actually the secretary. I
18 would often sign things because it was required to be
19 signed. You know, this isn't anything that we all signed
20 simultaneously. This could have been given to me and Vicki
21 signs it, Jesse signs it, Warren signs it, send it along to
22 OSA, then they sign it.
23 Q You were familiar, as director, as you said, the
24 number two guy in RTC, you were familiar with the bylaws of
25 the Religious Technology Center, correct?
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1 A You know, I wouldn't say so.
2 Q Well, can you pick those bylaws up, please?
3 A Yes, I can.
4 Q What is the exhibit number on that?
5 A Mine doesn't have an exhibit number.
6 THE COURT: 230.
7 MR. WEINBERG: 230?
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q And do you see that if you go to the last page, it
10 is dated June 15, 1982?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. If you go to --
13 MR. WEINBERG: In fact, if I can approach the
14 witness it will be easier.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q -- Article 6, Section 1 --
18 A Where am I?
19 Q Article 6, Section 1.
20 A That is Article 7, so this must be Article 6 right
21 here. Section 7 -- what section number?
22 Q Article 6, Section 1. Right here.
23 A All right.
24 Q See that?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And that is trustees. You see that?
2 A Uh-huh. Yes.
3 Q And you see that the bylaws of the organization
4 that you say you were number two in says, and I quote: "The
5 sole purpose of the board of trustees shall be to elect
6 directors of the corporation. In furtherance of this
7 purpose, the trustees may remove a director who fails to
8 meet the qualifications of a director or who conducts
9 himself in a manner which is contrary to the provisions of
10 Article 1 through 4 of these bylaws and the survival of
11 Scientology. In addition, the trustees shall have the power
12 to change the trustees."
13 Isn't that exactly what happened in March of 1987,
14 that you and Vicki Aznaran were removed by the trustees
15 pursuant to the bylaws of the RTC because you-all had failed
16 to meet the qualifications of a director because you
17 conducted yourself in a manner that was contrary to these
18 bylaws and the survival of Scientology because you had been
19 part of an out-tech operation?
20 A Is that a question?
21 THE COURT: That was awfully --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
23 THE COURT: Break that down.
24 A My signature isn't on here, by the way, as a
25 director on these bylaws.
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1 But these bylaws are signed by Steven Marlowe,
2 Laura Marlowe and someone else.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Right, because in 1982 you weren't a director, you
5 became a director after 1982.
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And I assume when you became director, you said
8 you had all this responsibility, you must have -- must have
9 familiarized yourself with what the purpose, as set forth in
10 the bylaws and articles of incorporation of the organization
11 that you were part of, was.
12 A Well, that, in itself, would be an assumption that
13 would have to be ratified by my testimony. And my testimony
14 is, is that I have never been a person that was legal-minded
15 and really understood corporate and bylaws and things like
16 that. I just wasn't.
17 THE COURT: Did you ever read this document?
18 THE WITNESS: I can't say that I have.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q But you --
21 A My signature is not on any part of this.
22 Q You understand now, after having seen this
23 document, seen Title 6, you understand that you were removed
24 in March of 1987 pursuant to the bylaws of RTC by the
25 trustees as a result of your misconduct? You understand
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1 that now, don't you?
2 A No. No.
3 THE COURT: He already testified why he
4 believes he was removed. It would not be consistent
5 with this. Obviously, the directors, if they were
6 here, would testify differently that it was pursuant
7 to this.
8 MR. WEINBERG: The trustees.
9 THE COURT: The trustees.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Mr. Prince, you can put that down.
13 A Okay.
14 Q Now --
15 THE COURT: I mean, I guess pursuant to your
16 question as to wasn't this true and wasn't that true
17 where he said no, that was coming from somewhere.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: So I assume -- that would have been
20 what somebody else might have said, but he disagrees
21 with that.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Now, you testified on direct that as soon as -- as
25 it became known that you were now going to work against
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1 Scientology, that you were threatened by Elliot Abelson, the
2 lawyer, is that what you said?
3 A I said I received a letter threatening to sue me
4 from Mr. Elliot Abelson.
5 Q And -- and you understood from receiving that
6 letter that the problem was that you had signed a release
7 upon your departure from Scientology -- from the Sea Org in
8 1992, among other things promising not to -- to work against
9 the Church of Scientology, or something to that effect?
10 A I would have to see that, if you --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- have it here.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have a couple of things
14 marked, your Honor.
15 Your Honor, here is 231. It is one exhibit.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q This whole package is 231, Mr. Prince.
18 A Okay, thank you.
19 Q Now, do you see Exhibit 231, Mr. Prince?
20 A I'm looking at it right now, Mr. Weinberg.
21 MR. WEINBERG: While he's looking at it, your
22 Honor, I'll mark as 232 the following document.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q That is 232.
25 A Okay.
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1 Q Have you had a chance to look at 231?
2 A Yes.
3 Q All right. And is that the correspondence that
4 you remember getting from Mr. Abelson?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that includes a letter that -- which is the
7 second page -- sent by hand-delivery to you in Minneapolis
8 on July 24, 1998 from Mr. Abelson, along with a copy of the
9 release. And then the first page is a letter of that same
10 date to you in care of Leipold, Donahue & Shipe, do you see
11 that?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And is this the full extent of the communications
14 between you and the Church of Scientology, Mr. Abelson, at
15 that time in July of 1998 with regard to whether or not you
16 could or would be a witness?
17 A Mmm, no. As I worked -- I mean -- I mean, I had
18 private investigators actually trying to stop me on the
19 street to hand me this letter.
20 Q I'm just asking you about any other communications
21 with Mr. Abelson.
22 A With Mr. Abelson? Not that I recall specifically.
23 Q Then am I correct that you got Mr. Leipold, who
24 you were already working with, I guess, at the time, to file
25 a lawsuit?
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1 A Correct.
2 Q And that is Exhibit --
3 MR. WEINBERG: What did I say? The lawsuit?
4 MR. DANDAR: 232.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q And that is Exhibit 232 in front of you, correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And that was a lawsuit filed on your behalf in --
9 that was filed -- date filed August 6, 1998 in Superior
10 Court in California seeking to declare the release, which is
11 one which is attached to that first exhibit, not valid as it
12 pertained to your testimony. Is that right?
13 A You know, I'm sorry, Mr. Weinberg, I'm a little
14 tired. But, you know, the question gets long. Then I don't
15 know what I'm supposed to be answering.
16 Q The purpose of this was to try to allow you to
17 work in cases against the Church of Scientology?
18 A No. Not at all.
19 THE COURT: A dec action normally just to
20 declare the rights of the parties.
21 MR. WEINBERG: That was my first question. And
22 I tried to make it simpler.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q I mean, you were asking the Court to declare that
25 the release did not prohibit you from testifying?
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1 A If that is what this says, yes.
2 Q Okay. And this case never -- it just lay -- you
3 never prosecuted this case. Is that right?
4 A No, I never pursued it.
5 Q And the Church of Scientology didn't -- didn't
6 file any lawsuit against you?
7 A No.
8 Q And that release that was attached is the release
9 that you were talking about that you signed in 1992, is that
10 right?
11 A Under extreme duress, yes.
12 Q The extreme -- did you sign it on the day that you
13 left?
14 A I signed it on the 31st of October. But for
15 whatever reason, Mr. Rathbun thought it would be more
16 appropriate to make it November. So he wrote "November 1st"
17 here. But the actual date that I left that I was taken to
18 the airport by the Scientology security official was the
19 31st of October.
20 Q Was it late at night that you signed it?
21 A No. But it was in the evening.
22 Q All right. Does it make a difference whether it
23 is November 1st or October 31st?
24 A It makes a difference as far as accuracy is
25 concerned.
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1 Q And on this same day, you were -- you talked to
2 Mr. Rathbun in -- in a recorded conversation?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And were you under any duress?
5 A Extreme duress, as is laid out in this complaint.
6 Q Did he threaten you during the conversation on the
7 31st?
8 A I was way past being threatened.
9 Q That was a simple question. Did he threaten you
10 during the conversation that was recorded on the 31st?
11 A I don't know. I would have to listen to it again.
12 Q Do you remember being threatened?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q When you say duress, what are you talking about?
15 A Well --
16 THE COURT: He already talked about it
17 throughout his testimony as to the whole schmear.
18 MR. WEINBERG: This is the last day when he
19 decided to walk out.
20 THE COURT: I understand that, Counselor. But
21 he already testified as to how he felt threatened
22 and how he felt coerced and all that and how it came
23 about.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
25 THE COURT: All this long tenure. But if you
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1 are specifically asking about right before he signed
2 is --
3 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm asking.
4 THE COURT: But don't suggest that is all he's
5 talking about because he talked about --
6 MR. WEINBERG: No. No, I'm talking about on
7 the 31st when this was recorded.
8 A I'll give you a simple statement. Unless I signed
9 this, I would have been -- remained a captive. Unless I did
10 this, I would have remained incarcerated by Scientology.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Now, the first time that you -- in 1987 when you
13 went into the RPF, you actually walked out on your own,
14 didn't you?
15 A What do you mean?
16 Q Well, you have testified about it. You actually
17 left the RPF and went into town, checked into a hotel --
18 A Escaped. I escaped. It just wasn't walking. No.
19 I escaped. And some Indians from the Soboba Springs
20 Reservation put me in a truck and drove me to bingo hall so
21 I could call the police. No, I escaped. I ran away from
22 that place.
23 Q So you didn't see Mr. Rathbun or anybody like that
24 who paid for a hotel?
25 A Oh, they caught me on the road walking.
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1 Q And they took you into town?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q So --
4 A In the back of a truck.
5 Q They didn't take you back to the RPF?
6 A I wasn't going to go back to the RPF. I made that
7 clear. I told them if they wanted to speak with me or
8 continue any kind of dialogue with me, it would be on my
9 terms and not on their terms and -- no longer on their
10 terms. That if they wanted to talk to me, I would sit still
11 in a place a while.
12 So they went and paid for a hotel. I went and got
13 a car, drove straight back to the RPF and got Vicki Aznaran
14 out of there. Vicki Aznaran didn't want to be there,
15 either.
16 Q And they let her go, too?
17 A No. They had no choice.
18 Q What do you mean, they had no choice?
19 A I came in there with a car, driving up their dirt
20 road so fast. I knew exactly where she was. As soon as I
21 went in there, I grabbed her, put her in that car and we
22 zoomed out the gate.
23 Q But the first time when you left, Mr. Rathbun
24 picked you up on the road, and instead of taking you back to
25 the RPF, he took you to a hotel in town and paid for a hotel
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1 room?
2 A At my demand, yes.
3 Q Well, if you are a prisoner, what right do you
4 have to demand anything?
5 A Because I'm in the public now. You see, I'm in
6 the open now. I'm not in Scientology's closed system where
7 they can do whatever they want to and people can't see. Now
8 I'm out on the public road with public cars passing by. And
9 that affords -- afforded some protection because it was a PR
10 flap.
11 For me to be out there, a disgruntled staff
12 member, extremely disgruntled staff member, leaving for my
13 life, my God, I'm walking through the desert, it is
14 110 degrees, that is the reason why.
15 I told them, "I'm going straight to the police,
16 straight to the press. I'm sick of you people."
17 Q This is in 1987?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Then after a week or two or three or whatever it
20 was, you then voluntarily went back to the RPF?
21 A No.
22 Q From the public?
23 A Mmm, Mr. Weiner (sic), you know on direct we
24 covered this quite well, and I explained the whole situation
25 about my wife, you know, how they wanted to split my wife
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1 and I, I didn't want to be split with her, I stayed there an
2 extra five years until she came to. You know, I have that
3 same testimony today.
4 Q One simple question. No one drug you back.
5 A Correct.
6 Q Now, you testified that -- I think that you were
7 shocked about private investigators and how a private
8 investigator has been running around. I mean, I think --
9 THE COURT: Shocked? I don't recall him being
10 shocked.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q How do you recall it?
13 A Annoyed. Kind of surprised.
14 Q Now, after you left the Church of Scientology in
15 1992, you actually became trained and worked in Texas as a
16 private investigator, didn't you? You were certified?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And the person that trained you was Rick Aznaran,
19 who had years before left the Church of Scientology?
20 A In 1989, I think -- no, it was five years prior to
21 me leaving. So, yes.
22 Q How long did you work as a private investigator?
23 A Oh, probably maybe -- maybe four months, five
24 months.
25 Q Now, let's go to your August 1999 affidavit.
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1 A Okay.
2 Q You are familiar with that affidavit, obviously.
3 Right?
4 A Well, Mr. Weinberg, if we're going to go through
5 and do the word games with it, I certainly need to have it
6 present in front of me.
7 MR. DANDAR: I might have it.
8 THE COURT: Which affidavit is this?
9 MR. WEINBERG: This is the one that the hearing
10 is about, basically.
11 THE COURT: Oh.
12 MR. DANDAR: I take that back. I thought I had
13 it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have a copy of it?
15 THE COURT: Did you say this was the one dated
16 the 1st of May of --
17 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. When I said the
18 hearing, this is the August 20, 1999 affidavit, the
19 one where the murder allegation was made.
20 THE COURT: I thought you said about this
21 hearing.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, it is the --
23 THE COURT: What number is that, Madam Clerk?
24 Could I have that? I don't have it up here.
25 MR. DANDAR: I'll object. There was no murder
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1 allegation in the affidavit.
2 THE COURT: The objection is on the record.
3 We'll deal with -- the affidavit says whatever it
4 says.
5 MR. DANDAR: It says what it says.
6 THE COURT: It says what it says.
7 MR. DANDAR: I just can't find my copy.
8 THE COURT: This one, is this 108 or something
9 like that?
10 MR. DANDAR: It is very possible.
11 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, look for 108, see what
12 that is.
13 THE CLERK: Defense 108 or --
14 THE COURT: Oh, I don't know.
15 MR. FUGATE: It is not 108, Judge.
16 THE COURT: No, that is not it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, I have one that I don't
18 think have any highlights on it -- well, one
19 highlight, nothing much.
20 THE COURT: That is all right, I don't mind the
21 highlights.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I can't even find the one that
23 did have highlights.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Do you have one, Mr. Prince?
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1 A No, I do not.
2 Q Okay, I have another one.
3 THE COURT: This is in evidence or else it is
4 attached to the response.
5 MR. DANDAR: And we would like it to be
6 considered as evidence in this hearing.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it needs to then be
8 admitted -- it hasn't been admitted. Do you want to
9 admit it as the defense next exhibit?
10 MR. DANDAR: That is fine.
11 MR. WEINBERG: How about plaintiff's next
12 exhibit?
13 MR. DANDAR: Or it could be a joint exhibit.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Frankly --
15 THE COURT: Make it your exhibit, Mr. Dandar.
16 MR. DANDAR: As well as the April 2002 exhibit
17 of Mr. Prince which is also filed.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I am not to that one yet. Why
19 don't we start with this one?
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I think -- are these the
22 exhibits to it?
23 THE COURT: I don't know that --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yours don't have it but it is
25 just --
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1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I actually --
2 THE COURT: I don't know what that is. Was it
3 attached to his affidavit?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Apparently so.
5 THE COURT: Let me see it.
6 MR. DANDAR: It is Plaintiff's Exhibit 126.
7 Yes, Plaintiff's Exhibit 126.
8 THE COURT: Do you remember, Mr. Dandar,
9 whether there were any attachments to his? I
10 honestly don't remember attachments, at least I
11 wasn't given -- in the copy I was given. It doesn't
12 mean there weren't some.
13 MR. DANDAR: My copy with me today has nothing
14 attached to it. But --
15 THE COURT: Well, let's just look, because if
16 there are no attachments to it, then you need not --
17 MR. WEINBERG: This wouldn't be something we
18 want in, anyway. These are not attachments. But I
19 think we'll probably find that he refers to some in
20 here somewhere.
21 (A discussion was held off the record.)
22 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, why don't we do this. I
23 marked one without the attachments. Why don't we
24 just mark it without the attachments?
25 THE COURT: Okay.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Then we won't have --
2 THE COURT: That will be plaintiff's next in
3 order.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
5 THE COURT: There will be no attachments. If
6 you later find out there are attachments with it --
7 MR. WEINBERG: He already put into evidence
8 the -- with the motions --
9 MR. DANDAR: It is already in as 126 of the
10 plaintiff.
11 THE COURT: 126?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: It is already in?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Then we don't need it in again,
16 Counsel. Number 126.
17 MR. WEINBERG: But it doesn't have attachments.
18 THE COURT: I'll just use this one and give it
19 back to you when we're done. Whoops, now I have two
20 of them.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I know, because I had given you
22 one with attachments and one without.
23 THE COURT: I'll use them. And when I'm done,
24 I'll give them both back to you.
25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Weinberg, I would like a
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1 copy, as well.
2 THE COURT: Here. Take mine, the extra.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Now, Mr. Prince, did I give you
5 Pages 1 through 18?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q First of all, take a look at that affidavit. And
10 go to the last page. And that is an affidavit that you
11 executed on August 20, 1999, is that right?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And you executed it in Mr. Dandar's office?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Now, you can put the affidavit down. I have some
16 questions first.
17 A Okay.
18 Q You had, as of August 20, 1999, no personal
19 knowledge as to what occurred in 1995 with regard to Lisa
20 McPherson at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. Correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q You had -- at that time you'd been out of
23 Scientology, out of a -- sorry, by that time you'd been out
24 of an executive position at Scientology for -- since 1987?
25 A Correct.
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1 Q You were not at the Ft. Harrison Hotel in 1995.
2 Correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q You never spoke to anybody that was with Lisa
5 McPherson while she was at the hotel in 1995. Correct?
6 A Well, let me think about that.
7 Q As of the time you executed your affidavit?
8 A Oh, not that I recall.
9 Q Okay. You had -- at the time that you executed
10 your affidavit in August of 1999, you had no knowledge -- no
11 personal knowledge as to what David Miscavige was doing or
12 where he was from November 18, 1995 through December 5,
13 1995. Correct?
14 A Yes.
15 THE COURT: Yes, that is true?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is true.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Now we are in important
18 areas so I want the record to be clear on things
19 like that.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Now, yet you opined in your affidavit --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me one second.
24 (Short pause.)
25
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q If you go to Page 17.
3 A Okay.
4 Q You opined in your affidavit, in Paragraph 44,
5 that: "Lisa McPherson was held against her will in
6 isolation. And when she did not respond to Scientology
7 technical handling, Flag, on orders from David Miscavige,
8 Ray Mithoff and Marty Rathbun, sat mute and watched her die
9 after she no longer had the strength to fight for her
10 freedom. Her death was no accident. It was a chosen option
11 to minimize a public relations flap."
12 That is what you said, correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q At the time you said that, you did not have a
15 shred -- you did not have a piece of evidence indicating --
16 indicating that in November and December of 1995 that either
17 Mr. Mithoff or Mr. Rathbun or Mr. Miscavige had done one
18 thing with regard to Lisa McPherson. Correct?
19 A Mmm, correct. I -- you labeled this as my
20 opinion, I think. You said I opined about these and this is
21 what I did.
22 Q Go to Paragraph 34 -- I mean Paragraph 43. I'm
23 sorry, Page 17, same page. Paragraph 43, you say: "Yet
24 from the available records, it is apparent to me that these
25 three individuals, Mithoff, Rathbun and Miscavige, had no
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1 option other than to permit her to die in isolation, rather
2 than to take her to the hospital for emergency medical
3 treatment and risk embarrassing questions from the attending
4 physician, press and authorities, with likely claims of
5 imprisonment and abuse being made by Lisa McPherson upon her
6 recovery."
7 You said that. Right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And -- but when you said that, you didn't have a
10 shred of evidence that indicated that Mr. Mithoff,
11 Mr. Rathbun or Mr. Miscavige made a decision to let her die.
12 Correct?
13 A This was my opinion, based on experience.
14 Q You didn't have any evidence, did you?
15 A I had no physical evidence, no.
16 THE COURT: Could I ask him a question here?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
18 THE COURT: I hate to interrupt. At that time,
19 at the time you wrote this, had the doctors, more
20 particularly, Dr. -- I can't even think of his name
21 now.
22 MR. DANDAR: Spitz.
23 THE COURT: -- Spitz, had he been deposed yet?
24 Do you know, Mr. Prince?
25 THE WITNESS: I do not recall, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: In other words, this was before you
2 had the medical testimony?
3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I wouldn't say that, either,
4 no. I -- I'm not sure about that, either. I know I
5 have read medical testimony from Mr. Dandar's
6 experts concerning what --
7 THE COURT: Do you know whether you had
8 knowledge of what that testimony -- I mean, I have
9 to presume you and Mr. Dandar, as his consultant,
10 discussed what he knew, what you knew.
11 THE WITNESS: Sure.
12 THE COURT: But do you know whether or not you
13 knew about the medical doctors before you wrote your
14 affidavit, or not?
15 THE WITNESS: I -- as I sit here today, your
16 Honor, I don't know.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q But you did know that the Church of Scientology
20 had been charged criminally at this point. Right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You were aware of what the medical examiner had
23 said, correct? The autopsy report, all of the controversy?
24 I mean, you were aware of all of that?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Now, you knew that by making an allegation like
2 you did in your affidavit in August of 1999, that David
3 Miscavige, the leader of the Church of Scientology, was part
4 of an intentional decision to allow a fellow Scientologist
5 who was on a religious program, introspection rundown, to
6 die. You knew that making an allegation like that would --
7 would be -- would bring very negative press and very
8 negative reactions from the Church. Correct?
9 A You know, Mr. Weinberg, I don't know which part of
10 that diatribe to respond to.
11 THE COURT: It wasn't a diatribe. He said did
12 you know that this would bring very negative
13 reactions from the Church?
14 THE WITNESS: I mean, that was not in my
15 awareness. That was not part of my thought process
16 when I executed this document here. My thought
17 process, in executing this document, is after
18 reviewing the preclear folders, reviewing the
19 caretaker notes, reviewing what other information
20 that was available, which I had studied for
21 months -- you see, you say she was on the
22 introspection rundown, yet your client cannot
23 produce one sheet of paper --
24 THE COURT: See, you are well, well past --
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
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1 THE COURT: This question is real simple. His
2 question was did you know, when you executed this
3 affidavit, that this would cause negative
4 reaction -- I can't remember what word you used --
5 negative reaction from the Church?
6 THE WITNESS: Right. That was not in my
7 conscious -- consciousness to create that, you know,
8 or -- or -- I mean I don't think this ever appeared
9 in the newspaper or -- or anything like that. I
10 mean, as far as public relations is concerned, I
11 think this is a document that is held within this
12 courtroom.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q No. It just appeared in a lawsuit that that
15 document was the basis for that accused the Church of
16 Scientology, specifically its leader, David Miscavige, of
17 murder. It appeared in that. Right?
18 A I prepared this -- this affidavit for this case.
19 Q Right. And that affidavit was the -- was the
20 principal piece of evidence that was used to seek the fifth
21 amended complaint that made it very clear that there was a
22 murder allegation against David Miscavige, among others.
23 Correct?
24 A You know, you're asking me to do -- or to comment
25 upon work that was actually Mr. Dandar's work. Mr. Dandar
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1 simply asked me, "What do you think happened with Lisa
2 McPherson? Based on everything that you have read, what do
3 you think happened to her?"
4 Then we went, "Well, why do you think it happened
5 to her? Well, can you show me? Can you tell me?"
6 And after we went through that process, I went
7 over this many times because he was like, "Are you sure?
8 Are you sure?"
9 I said, "Look, this is the way it works here. I
10 was here. I know how it works. I have seen this in
11 operation." You know, I'm not --
12 THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you are going on and
13 on. And the long and short of it is you testified
14 on direct examination, in response to questions
15 either from your lawyer -- or I should not say your
16 lawyer, either from the person to whom you consult
17 with or from me, that you'd never seen an end cycle
18 ordered by David Miscavige --
19 THE WITNESS: Correct.
20 THE COURT: -- other than on a terminally ill
21 person.
22 THE WITNESS: Correct.
23 THE COURT: So the long and short of it is you
24 really didn't have any experience for these
25 particular serious allegations, did you?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did, your Honor. And I
2 think with the first part of my testimony, when you
3 see the pattern of the conduct of this organization
4 in that it is not below them to do something
5 illegal, it is not below them to put themselves
6 before an individual, it is --
7 THE COURT: Well, then it was just speculative
8 on your part. This is one of a number of
9 possibilities that could have happened?
10 THE WITNESS: Right. Exactly.
11 THE COURT: This just happened to be the only
12 one you mentioned?
13 THE WITNESS: Well, this is the only one I
14 believe did happen.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay?
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q You knew -- at the time you executed this
19 affidavit that was the basis for the fifth amended
20 complaint, you knew that there was no policy, no written
21 policy, in the Church of Scientology with regard to killing
22 someone who was on an introspection rundown. You knew that,
23 didn't you?
24 A Basically -- no, there is no policy to kill
25 people. There is nothing in the policy to kill people that
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1 I know of.
2 Q Okay. And you have said many, many times over the
3 course of this litigation if it isn't written, it isn't so.
4 Correct? That it is -- it is all in writing, it is all
5 written down, as far as Scientology policy. Correct?
6 A As far as Scientology policy is concerned, that is
7 something that they say.
8 Q All right. Now, you had been -- you had one
9 experience with the introspection rundown where you actually
10 were on an introspection rundown watching someone. That is
11 Teresita. Correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And Ms. Brooks was on that same introspection
14 rundown. Right?
15 A For a short period of time, yes.
16 Q And in that -- and that went over the course of a
17 month or so?
18 A A couple months.
19 Q A couple of months?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And people were with Teresita around the clock?
22 A Primarily myself was with her around the clock.
23 But, you know, her being a young woman, sometimes she would
24 need help going to the bathroom or, you know, cleaning
25 herself up. That is when the girls would come, like Stacy
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1 and another girl would help.
2 Q And part of 0 and 00 of the introspection rundown
3 is the isolation part, right, which is what this watch was,
4 and also getting food and -- and nutrition so you can start
5 auditing, try to get out of the psychotic state. Correct?
6 A Almost correct. But the auditing pretty much
7 happens immediately after the person has had a period of
8 time asleep, such as eight hours, the auditing is
9 immediately started.
10 Q If someone is still psychotic, in other words, out
11 of their mind, not -- not in present time, they can't get
12 audited, can they?
13 A Well, you know -- no. You can audit an
14 unconscious person. There are auditing processes where you
15 can actually audit an unconscious person.
16 Q You didn't receive an order to let Teresita die,
17 did you?
18 A No. I did not.
19 Q No one received an order to let Teresita die?
20 A No.
21 Q Teresita was a staff member --
22 A Correct.
23 Q -- who had a psychotic break, apparently.
24 Correct?
25 A You know --
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1 Q Can you just answer that question?
2 A Okay, I am going to answer. But, you know, you
3 talk about psychotic break. And again, you know, what are
4 we talking about here?
5 THE COURT: We're talking about somebody that
6 barks like a dog, which is what you said she did.
7 That is somebody that had a psychotic break.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay. Am I qualified to do
9 a medical diagnosis? I don't think so.
10 THE COURT: No, but we are all qualified in
11 this room to know that somebody that is barking like
12 a dog had something go wrong. And it is usually
13 psychotic. Fair enough?
14 THE WITNESS: Is it temporary? Does it go on
15 for weeks? Does it just happen for an hour? I
16 mean, what are we talking about?
17 THE COURT: Let him ask his question and let
18 him answer and we'll all make our assumptions when
19 it is over.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q All right. What I'm talking about, when you were
22 with her most of the time, you saw to it that she ate and
23 that she drank. Correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q And you -- I think you have said in testimony,
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1 whether it is -- I think it was your affidavit, this
2 affidavit that we're looking at, 126, that at one point you
3 thought that she was -- was going to die, I think you said.
4 Correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Because you were concerned that she wasn't getting
7 enough to drink or enough to eat?
8 A No. That is not why I thought she was going to
9 die. I thought she was going to die because she couldn't
10 sleep.
11 Q And you --
12 THE COURT: Maybe you can show me where you
13 are, because this is a long affidavit. I don't
14 remember where this part of it was.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll show you. It is Page
16 13.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Paragraph 31.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Read that out loud, Mr. Prince. It is one
21 sentence.
22 A I'm sorry. What is it?
23 Q Page 13, Paragraph 31.
24 A Uh-huh.
25 Q Can you read that out loud?
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1 A "If I had not forcibly made her drink water, I am
2 positive that, based upon my own observation, she would have
3 died."
4 Q So you were concerned that she was going to die if
5 you didn't force her or make her drink water. That is what
6 you said under oath in this August 1999 affidavit. Correct?
7 A Yes, Mr. Weinberg. But if you go to Number 29 of
8 the same affidavit, I also mention the fact that I was
9 afraid she was going to die because she could not sleep.
10 Q Okay.
11 THE COURT: He also said she had a -- you also
12 said she had a psychotic break, didn't you?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. I did.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q All right. But the point is, Mr. Prince, is that
16 you took it upon yourself to help her get through this.
17 Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So did Stacy Brooks?
20 A For a short time.
21 Q So did a number of other people that were there.
22 Correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And you got an award for it?
25 A No, I didn't.
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1 Q You got recognized for it?
2 A No, I didn't.
3 Q You didn't?
4 A Come on.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Could I just approach the
6 witness, your Honor, while I get copies of this?
7 THE COURT: You may.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q I show you --
10 MR. WEINBERG: We'll mark it --
11 THE COURT: I think it has already been marked
12 because when Stacy Brooks was on the stand --
13 MR. WEINBERG: You are right, it has been
14 marked, and we'll figure out what the exhibit number
15 is.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q "August 31, 1988. Commendable. The following
18 people are acknowledged for their assistance on handling a
19 cycle that was above and beyond their duties. Their actions
20 helped in the standard application of Scientology technology
21 on the introspection rundown that made a being sane. Highly
22 commended: Jesse Prince."
23 Do you see that?
24 A Where?
25 Suzie Watson? I had forgotten about her. The
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1 rest of them people are security guards.
2 Well, you know, this is possible. I hadn't
3 remembered it.
4 Q Well, you were pretty happy, were you not, that
5 you were successful in your endeavors to help Teresita?
6 A You know, I was happy that she survived and made
7 it home okay. I was happy about that. Yes.
8 Q And you're aware that she's alive today and is
9 still a Scientologist?
10 A I have no information about that.
11 Q She went home? She was allowed to go home after
12 the introspection rundown was concluded?
13 A Yes. She signed her release, similar to this
14 thing I signed, and she --
15 Q No one told you to keep her there to avoid a
16 public relations flap?
17 A After she was well?
18 Q Yes.
19 A No.
20 Q No?
21 A No.
22 Q And during this process, she hit you. Correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q She ran out several times, ran out into the
25 country?
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1 A Right.
2 Q I mean, one could say, if they didn't know, that
3 she was crazy, that she was trying to escape, correct, when
4 she ran out?
5 A You could surmise that. I don't know. She was
6 running in the wrong direction to escape because where we
7 were at, we were on a -- where this place is, where we had
8 her, the mountains are behind there. And she ran up that
9 way. Which, unless you are a skilled mountain climber, you
10 are not going to go very far.
11 Q And what you did, you ran after her, didn't you?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you brought her back?
14 A No. Actually I couldn't catch her because she ran
15 so fast. Sometimes people have superhuman strength. And
16 then she climbed so high. And she was a lightweight person.
17 And when I tried to reach for her, I couldn't reach where
18 she was. So I had to literally sit and wait for her to
19 decide to come down.
20 Q Then you brought her back?
21 A No. I walked behind her. She brought herself
22 back.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you brought her back,
24 she came back, you followed her back --
25 THE WITNESS: She came back.
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1 THE COURT: The deal was you weren't going to
2 let her, in that state, go anywhere except stay
3 there and continue to be handled. Right?
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q Now, you cannot speak for what all
8 Scientologists -- other Scientologists would follow as far
9 as policy, can you?
10 A No, I cannot.
11 Q Because -- because of the concept in Scientology
12 that what is true for you is true. Correct?
13 A Well, not -- not wholly because also it depends on
14 how much you have been trained, how much policy you know,
15 you know. You can't be expected to understand something you
16 don't know.
17 Q We've talked about this in your depositions
18 before. The point is, is that it is a policy of Scientology
19 that Scientologists can decide on their own what -- whether
20 to ignore policy or not -- to ignore a particular policy or
21 not?
22 A No. That is not true.
23 Q Then what did you mean when you testified --
24 A Not ignore a policy. You know, I mean, how could
25 you ignore the policy to lock the door when all of the staff
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1 walk out? You know, you're going to get in trouble. That
2 doesn't make sense. You don't ignore the policy. Either
3 you understand it and you accept it, or you don't.
4 Q So you don't have to accept it if you don't want
5 to, that is a policy -- that is what is true for you is true
6 for you?
7 A No. No, no. Maybe with tech, you know, a
8 belief -- but policy that lays out the fundamental actions
9 of the organization? No.
10 Q You don't have any knowledge of what the staff
11 members that were staying with Lisa McPherson -- what
12 policies they were or were not following and what they
13 believed about those policies? You are not in a position to
14 opine about that, are you?
15 A What policies -- policy are you referring to?
16 Q Whatever policies they were advised as to or
17 practicing when they were staying with Lisa McPherson.
18 A You know, that is kind of ambiguous. If you have
19 got a policy, I could tell you whether or not I think
20 they're aware of it.
21 Q All right. Now, do you remember that in or about
22 August or September -- we'll pull the exact affidavit now --
23 in 2001 you executed an affidavit that was the basis of a
24 motion for severe sanctions against the Church, and as a
25 result you withdrew as an expert in the case?
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1 THE COURT: Are we done with this affidavit?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yes.
3 THE COURT: All right, I'm going to let you
4 have that back. Mr. Prince, if you want to, you can
5 give that back.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 THE COURT: I believe this is in evidence, too,
8 isn't it?
9 MR. WEINBERG: I think it is. It is but -- do
10 we have copies of the affidavit? I think we have
11 copies.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Good. I just went ahead --
13 I'm just having the evidence filed as I read through
14 it.
15 MR. WEINBERG: You know what --
16 THE COURT: It is too massive.
17 MR. WEINBERG: -- this one I'm not positive
18 about, whether it is in evidence or not.
19 THE COURT: I don't know, either. Madam Clerk,
20 how do you know what is in evidence?
21 MR. WEINBERG: I should know this and, frankly,
22 I apologize.
23 THE COURT: Is there any way you can tell us
24 whether an affidavit of Jesse Prince dated September
25 of 2001 is in evidence?
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1 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge, I can check. Is it
2 plaintiff's or defendant's?
3 THE COURT: I can't tell you if it is
4 plaintiff's or defendant's. These come in under
5 strange hands.
6 MR. DANDAR: I don't believe the plaintiff used
7 this at this hearing.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I'll mark it. We'll mark as the
9 next exhibit, the September of 2001 affidavit of
10 Mr. Prince.
11 THE COURT: What number is that?
12 THE CLERK: 233.
13 MR. WEINBERG: 233.
14 THE COURT: And if you find it is in evidence,
15 you'll let us know and we'll take that one out.
16 We'll have just a mound of evidence.
17 MR. WEINBERG: It is obviously part of a court
18 record.
19 THE COURT: Yes. And I believe it has been
20 referred to several times. But I'm not sure it has
21 ever been introduced.
22 MR. DANDAR: 233?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
24 THE COURT: So it will be received.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Then -- where is the motion? Do
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1 you have the motion? I might as well do the whole
2 package here. 234 would be the motion for severe
3 sanctions.
4 THE COURT: I don't know why I would need the
5 motion to be introduced. But --
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think there was
7 something I wanted to refer to and, frankly, I don't
8 know what it was. I'll just mark it anyway. And
9 that would be 234.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Now, is that an affidavit that you executed,
12 Mr. Prince?
13 A Yes, it is, Mr. Weinberg.
14 Q And it was done -- who wrote this affidavit?
15 A I did.
16 Q Did you get any help writing this affidavit?
17 A Mmm, maybe somebody, you know, did margins for me
18 or, you know, word --
19 Q I mean, somebody drafted it for you? Nobody
20 drafted it for you? You did all that?
21 A Again, I don't want to be coy when answering the
22 question. Sometimes Mr. Dandar or some attorney will
23 suggest information based on conversations that we had
24 and -- quite normally.
25 And I think Mr. Dandar can attest to this, that I
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1 normally start from the beginning and type my own, do my own
2 work.
3 Q Now, if you go to Paragraph 22 and 23 of this
4 affidavit, on Page 5 --
5 A Yes?
6 Q -- you swore in the affidavit that -- that --
7 that: "As a result of my arrest and criminal prosecution, I
8 was extremely upset, embarrassed and humiliated and could
9 see in here that my fiancee and her two minor children were
10 traumatized by this experience."
11 Then you went on in 23 to say that: "Further, I
12 had advised Ken Dandar, counsel for the estate of Lisa
13 McPherson, that I must withdraw as the estate's expert in
14 the above-captioned cause as a result of my arrest and
15 prosecution and serious concern of further and more intense
16 fair game by Scientology and its operatives." Then you go
17 on.
18 Do you see that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So the purpose of this affidavit was to say you
21 were not going to be an expert anymore in this case because
22 you were scared of Scientology. That is essentially what
23 you said, right?
24 A No. I think that is a mischaracterization of what
25 it says here.
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1 Q How would you characterize it?
2 A I was concerned for my family. You see, I had no
3 problem with weathering the storm with Scientology
4 personally. But this is beyond personal -- I think I
5 explained this in my testimony yesterday. Innocent people
6 are involved here. It just wasn't worth it to me. And I
7 couldn't hire an attorney. I just lost my job. You know, I
8 don't want to do that.
9 THE COURT: He said, "Not only to myself but my
10 fiancee and her two children, who are all very dear
11 to me." That is all the same section.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Did it concern you, for the previous four years
14 when you were threatening the Church, picketing in front of
15 their buildings, saying obscene things about David
16 Miscavige, did it -- did it -- did it concern you then about
17 Scientology?
18 A Mmm, what it -- it concerned me the moment that I
19 found out that this operation had been run on me and drugs
20 put on my back porch. I mean, it just went to a whole new
21 level at that point. This is at my home. This is where I
22 live. People coming in, putting seed around, you know,
23 commiserating with police, telling them I'm a drug dealer,
24 cocaine dealer.
25 I have children. My fiancee gets her children
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1 taken away from her. It escalated to a new level,
2 Mr. Weinberg.
3 Q But the affidavit is executed in September of
4 2001. You had been acquitted in the spring, hadn't you?
5 A Yes. Then didn't --
6 Q Not acquitted. There had been a hung jury and the
7 prosecutor decided not to pursue it. That was in the
8 spring, wasn't it?
9 A Didn't Mr. Rinder quote, in the St. Pete Times,
10 "We'll get him next time." Okay? He was quoted, "We'll get
11 him next time." I don't want any more next times.
12 Q You continued to be an expert and consultant for
13 Mr. Dandar up until -- after the hung jury in the spring, up
14 until September of 2001 when Mr. Minton said he wasn't going
15 to fund the case anymore. Is that what happened?
16 A No. Disrelated items.
17 Q It just happened to be coincidentally at the same
18 time?
19 A If you characterize it that way. Again, like I
20 say, as we've gone over, my regular job at the trust of
21 helping people and doing things was over. We were in the
22 process of leaving town. Everything Scientology wanted to
23 accomplish had been accomplished. The trust was ruined.
24 You know, we were done. It was over. People were going
25 home.
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1 Q So --
2 A That wasn't good enough.
3 Q Actually, you wouldn't need to work on the case
4 anymore because the trust was over. Right?
5 A No, you know, I wouldn't draw that conclusion,
6 Mr. Weinberg. I'm saying my family, right where I live,
7 were threatened. You know, even today you knock on the
8 door, if we get an unexpected visitor, people in my house
9 jump out of their skin. What the hell, because that is
10 exactly how the DEA came in my house, running around with
11 fully automatic weapons in front of my children, because a
12 Scientology private investigator told him I'm selling
13 marijuana, cocaine, selling stolen auto parts; lying, in
14 other words. And this happened. Okay? I think I had a
15 reason to be concerned.
16 Q Didn't Mr. Minton ask you to withdraw from being
17 an expert in the case?
18 A Never.
19 Q Did Ms. Brooks ask you to withdraw from the case?
20 A Yes, she did.
21 Q Did Ms. Brooks tell you that was Mr. Minton's
22 desire that you not be an expert anymore?
23 A No, she did not.
24 Q Did Ms. Brooks tell you why it was her desire you
25 not be an expert in the case anymore?
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1 A Yes, she did.
2 Q She said that had to do with the Lisa McPherson
3 Trust, the reason?
4 A No, she said that Scientology had successfully
5 inextricably mixed the work we were doing at the trust with
6 this case, and irrespective of the lawyers and the arguments
7 that they made, you know, it was like they wanted that, too.
8 Because of this, all of that discovery goes on with
9 Mr. Minton, the trust is virtually raided, you know. Those
10 kinds of reasons.
11 She said, "Look, if this case didn't exist, none
12 of this would be happening. We could still be doing this
13 work. But because this has happened, it's putting everyone
14 in a horrible position. It ruined the company."
15 Q Is there a particular reason why you didn't put in
16 your affidavit what Ms. Brooks had asked you to do, to
17 withdraw?
18 A Yes, because it is irrelevant. It is my decision.
19 I spoke on this yesterday, Mr. Weinberg. I said, you know,
20 Stacy wanted this to be done.
21 I spoke to Bob. And it is like, "Jesse, Stacy is
22 upset because of discovery and things that are going on,"
23 yik-yik-yik. And, "You know, if you have to work with Ken,
24 it's up to you if there is something that is needed to be
25 done." He didn't care.
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1 Q Did you tell Mr. Dandar that Ms. Brooks had told
2 you -- asked you to withdraw as an expert?
3 A I think Ms. Brooks may have called him herself
4 because she was quite panicked.
5 Q Did you send a copy of the motion -- a draft -- a
6 copy of the draft of the motion for severe sanctions to
7 Mr. Minton before it was ever filed? You?
8 A I don't think so.
9 Q Well, you did make it a practice to E-Mail or send
10 or give to Mr. Minton copies of draft pleadings. You made
11 that a practice, didn't you?
12 A No. Come on.
13 Q In the case?
14 A Uh-uh.
15 Q Never did that, did you?
16 A No. And, you know, I don't draft pleadings.
17 Again, I'm not the lawyer.
18 MR. WEINBERG: The next exhibit. Your Honor,
19 this is 235.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Do you see 235, Mr. Prince?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q This is a copy of an E-Mail which you sent to whom
25 on 9/20/01?
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1 A Okay. Okay.
2 Q You sent this to Mr. Minton, didn't you?
3 A Apparently, I did.
4 Q And you say here --
5 MR. WEINBERG: We move this into evidence, your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q And this is an E-Mail where you say --
10 THE COURT: Can you show me how we know it went
11 to Mr. Minton? I can't read this stuff well enough
12 to know.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I think maybe Mr. Prince can
14 explain that better than me.
15 THE COURT: What is it at the top that shows
16 this went to Mr. Minton?
17 THE WITNESS: There is nothing that says this
18 went to Mr. Minton on this document.
19 THE COURT: Well, you just remember sending it
20 to Mr. Minton?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm assuming. You know,
22 I'm not here saying I have never sent anything to
23 Mr. Minton about anything.
24 THE COURT: Here, maybe this is it, I don't
25 know, this is encrypted something at the back.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
2 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, this was an
3 encrypted message on my computer.
4 MR. WEINBERG: This is where you see it at the
5 back.
6 THE COURT: I think I found it already.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Right here, "To: Bob Minton,
8 From: Jesse Prince. Received."
9 THE COURT: How do we know -- how do we know
10 this is -- I mean, I don't care, but how do we know
11 that this is the same thing?
12 THE WITNESS: Exactly. Here we have a bunch of
13 characters, and now attached to it with -- you know,
14 when you get on the Internet, it clearly says from
15 who to who on the message. It doesn't look like
16 this. It is not in this format. It is not like
17 that.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Well, look at -- look at this page here.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I don't know how to
21 indicate it.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Look at that page. That is an E-Mail you sent to
25 Mr. Minton. Correct?
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1 A Correct.
2 Q On September 20, 2001?
3 A Correct.
4 Q 9:41:07?
5 A Yes, I guess so.
6 Q Something like that?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q This is obviously an encrypted message. Correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q You each had that program so you could communicate
11 with one another in an encrypted fashion?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Then you had -- what do you call it -- decrypted,
14 what is it, a code or something?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Then you are able to, on the other end, decode it,
17 right?
18 A Correct.
19 Q All right. Now, the decoding is what the first
20 part of this exhibit is?
21 A The what?
22 Q The decrypting, decoding, whatever it is called
23 where it says: "Here is the motion Ken will file in the
24 next day or two. And this is not the final form as he is
25 doing more work on it today. I'll make sure you have a copy
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1 of the final draft."
2 A Okay.
3 Q You did that, didn't you?
4 A I did what now?
5 Q You sent to Mr. Minton that message in encrypted
6 form with a draft of this motion for severe sanctions?
7 A You know, I'm going to hold off on saying that
8 happened because, you know, here is this message, it is
9 encrypted --
10 THE COURT: Well, you sent this to somebody,
11 you'll agree?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I sent it to somebody.
13 THE COURT: It could have been Mr. Minton?
14 THE WITNESS: It could have been Mr. Minton.
15 It could have been Mrs. Brooks. It could --
16 THE COURT: You wouldn't be apt to send it to
17 anybody else, right?
18 THE WITNESS: Sometimes I would check things
19 via Mr. Leipold just to get his opinion on it,
20 another attorney I work with.
21 THE COURT: I think I know what Mr. Weinberg
22 was saying. If you look over on this -- this what
23 we'll call the encrypted one, the date -- or the
24 time is 9:41:01 on September 20, 2001.
25 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
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1 THE COURT: If you look at the one we can read,
2 it says 9:40:22.
3 THE WITNESS: You show me where you are --
4 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Up here. See here?
5 9/20/01. 9:40:22. See that?
6 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
7 THE COURT: It looks like that is -- that went
8 out -- now look over here. This encrypted, see, it
9 says: "Date, September, 20, '01, 9:41:01." So it
10 looks like it may have -- it goes out once like
11 this --
12 MR. DANDAR: That confirms it is not the same
13 thing.
14 MR. WEINBERG: You know, I move this into
15 evidence and we'll get an authenticating affidavit
16 from Mr. Minton saying that this is a document --
17 THE COURT: All right --
18 MR. WEINBERG: -- that he received and he
19 produced to us.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 THE COURT: And Mr. Prince didn't -- didn't
22 send it to Mr. Minton. What he basically is saying,
23 he's not sure. And I can't tell, but it looks like
24 there is some correlation between these two things.
25 I don't -- I don't think I'm smart enough or if you
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1 are smart enough to prove it to me, but that will be
2 enough -- and you don't deny that, right, it could
3 have gone to Mr. Minton?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I move it into evidence, your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: And I'm going to receive it because
8 it was clearly something from Mr. Prince.
9 And you just don't know for sure who it went
10 to, is that it?
11 THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: What number is it again?
13 THE CLERK: 235.
14 THE COURT: 234?
15 MR. DANDAR: 235.
16 THE COURT: 235. Thank you.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Now, why would you be -- assuming that this did go
19 to Mr. Minton, why would you be sending Mr. Minton a draft
20 of a motion for severe sanctions that was going to be filed
21 by Ken Dandar in a couple days, in September of 2001, when
22 you say that you had withdrawn from the case?
23 A Well, I'll give you the -- the answer I could
24 think of about this -- Mmm -- this affidavit that you showed
25 me earlier, this one here from September of 2001, I think it
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1 is -- yeah, where I talk about --
2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I hate to do this. Is
3 this the affidavit, or is this the motion?
4 MR. WEINBERG: This is the motion.
5 THE COURT: Okay. The affidavit isn't here,
6 unless that is what this is.
7 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. No. This -- this --
8 if you look at the note at the front, "Here is the
9 motion Ken will file in the next day or so."
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. WEINBERG: The affidavit, you know, had
12 already been done, apparently.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: This affidavit is dated the next
15 day.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, this is the motion.
18 THE COURT: So your question was -- I'm
19 sorry -- why would you send the motion --
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q What was the reason -- assuming you sent this
22 draft to Mr. Minton, what was the reason you would have been
23 sending to Mr. Minton, in September of 2001, an advance
24 draft of a motion that was being filed for severe sanctions
25 in the Lisa McPherson case?
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1 A Because as I recall, he was extremely upset with
2 me. He was extremely upset with Ken Dandar because of this
3 affidavit here. You know, we're busy going along here --
4 Q The affidavit wasn't done -- Mr. Dandar just
5 pointed it out -- until after this E-Mail went out?
6 A I'm just trying to give you what I remember so you
7 can take it apart in a minute, if you just let me get it
8 out.
9 Q All right. Go ahead.
10 A What I recall about this is Mr. Minton was
11 extremely upset about this affidavit because I had gone
12 through a whole criminal trial where I had not taken the
13 stand and -- nor -- and I had not admitted guilt or -- you
14 know, assumed innocence. In other words, I sat through the
15 trial and they had to no prosecute -- or whatever, a hung
16 jury.
17 So from my mouth, I had never said that I had used
18 drugs with the private investigator and, you know, running
19 around with this detective and whatever and whatever.
20 Now, from my own mouth, he felt it defeated the
21 purpose of having a trial if you are just going to run
22 around and do that. Again, you know, I'm not a lawyer. I
23 don't know. I want them to know and do it.
24 But I do know that Ken was extremely upset over
25 the fact that I wasn't going to be his expert anymore, that
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1 I wouldn't be able to sit there and help him, as I had done,
2 on the case. I'd worked on it for years. So this was very
3 upsetting to him on a personal level when I told him, "Look,
4 Ken --" and this is before -- I told him, "Look, I can't do
5 this anymore. I can't protect myself. I can't protect my
6 family. It seems the Court is letting Scientology do
7 whatever they want to, running roughshod in here. All this
8 crap is going on. There is no relief. I'm ready to leave
9 this town. It is not personal against you, Mr. Dandar, that
10 I think you know the reason why I can't support you, but I
11 can't support you and protect my family, as well."
12 Q Mr. Minton had told you that he wasn't going to
13 fund the case anymore at this time. Correct? You knew
14 that?
15 A You know, I don't understand how I can be saying
16 one thing and then you just say something else.
17 THE COURT: That is a question.
18 THE WITNESS: No, that -- no, that is not true,
19 Mr. -- Mr. Weiner -- Weinberg.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q So you didn't know that Mr. Minton had told
22 Mr. Dandar, as of August of 2001, that there wasn't going to
23 be any more funds? You didn't know that?
24 A You know, the last time we talked about this -- I
25 mean, Ken got, what, $500,000 in 2000 that was supposed to
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1 take him to the end of the case. I wasn't thinking about
2 Mr. Dandar's money. Mr. Dandar's money and how he was
3 operating this case financially was never -- never has been
4 any of my concern. There's nothing I can do about it one
5 way or the other.
6 Q Now, did you talk to Mr. Merrett about withdrawing
7 from the case?
8 A Mr. Merrett spoke to me on behalf of Stacy Brooks.
9 She wanted him to explain to me why it would be beneficial
10 for the Lisa McPherson Trust and the people that we are
11 trying to help if I withdrew from the case.
12 Q So that didn't have anything to do with threats to
13 your family or anything like that? That has to do with
14 Mr. Minton's request that you get out of the case because of
15 the Lisa McPherson Trust?
16 A You know, I testified twice that Mr. Minton never
17 said that. So I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
18 Q Ms. Brooks then?
19 A Yes. Thank you. Get it right. That is why we're
20 here.
21 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Prince.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm a little grouchy.
23 I'm tired.
24 THE COURT: I understand. We all get grouchy.
25 If you wait for another hour, I'll get grouchy.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: I have that in mind.
2 THE COURT: I get grouchy a little after 12 and
3 4 o'clock just about every day.
4 THE WITNESS: I know that 4 o'clock is the
5 witching hour.
6 THE COURT: It's a very bad hour for all of us.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I was going to say something but
8 I won't.
9 THE COURT: It is best you not.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q All right. Well, let me show you what has already
12 been marked as an exhibit, Exhibit 49. I have got a copy,
13 so -- it is that E-Mail.
14 THE COURT: The E-Mail? Okay. I thought I
15 might see this E-Mail about now.
16 THE WITNESS: Everybody knows but me.
17 THE COURT: This has already been introduced
18 into evidence.
19 MR. WEINBERG: This is 49.
20 THE COURT: And they testified about it.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Defense 49.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Now, this is an E-Mail that has been identified by
24 Mr. Merrett, among others, that he sent to Mr. Dandar on
25 August 24, 2001, which is before you executed your
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1 affidavit, which says: "Ken, the short version of what's
2 going on is this. The well is dry as far as money goes.
3 Jesse is going to withdraw as an expert witness. Bob feels
4 that the case is way out of control and is focused
5 100 percent on him and specifically on trying to put him in
6 jail. He wants Dell to settle the case or otherwise make it
7 go away. Bob isn't coming into Florida any time soon. Can
8 you meet with me and Stacy this weekend to discuss that?"
9 Do you see that?
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q Now, you knew about this E-Mail?
12 A No. Never. This is the first time I have ever
13 seen it.
14 Q Well, how did Mr. Merrett know, as early as
15 August 24, 2001, to tell Mr. Dandar that you were
16 withdrawing as an expert witness?
17 A Well, you know, you would have to ask him that.
18 I'm not even a part of this. I mean, somebody is talking to
19 me about it. If I said anything, it would just be hearsay,
20 wouldn't it?
21 Q So no one told you that the well was dry then?
22 A You know, I heard that several times. But as you
23 and I both know, the well is not dry. Mr. Minton still has
24 plenty of money to extricate himself out of trouble he gets
25 into by seeing that new lawyers, having had three of them in
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1 here since I have been testifying, for Christ's sake, three
2 different ones, Mr. Battaglia, another one yesterday, the
3 one sitting here now.
4 Q You didn't know as of August 24 Mr. Minton had
5 sent the message to Mr. Dandar that there was going to be no
6 more money? You didn't know that?
7 A No. No, sir, I did not.
8 THE COURT: Please try to refrain from taking
9 the Lord's name in vain in this case.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor, I didn't
11 even know I -- did I say the GD word?
12 THE COURT: No, you didn't say that one.
13 You'll see it on a transcript.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry, your Honor.
15 Like I said, I'm tired, grouchy.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q You did. But -- he didn't tell you that the well
18 was dry, Mr. Minton, but he did tell you, you said, about
19 having given Mr. Dandar a $500,000 check?
20 A Yeah, you know, and I'm talking about 2000, okay?
21 Then again, you know, just in February, he said, "Look, Ken
22 needs more money. Go over and have this conversation with
23 him."
24 So how could the well be dry on this date, but a
25 little while later, hey, here is another quarter of a
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1 million.
2 You know, this was not anything I was privy to,
3 anything I was dealing with.
4 You know, Stacy was in a complete panic, as I
5 said. We were being raided. You know, motion after motion,
6 deposed, on and on. You know, she was panicked. She got
7 spooked. You know, she was just trying to put a band-aid on
8 this any way she can.
9 Q It is true Mr. Minton told you -- as indicated in
10 this E-Mail, it is true he was concerned about going to jail
11 at that point, correct, in August of 2001?
12 MR. DANDAR: Objection. There is no jail
13 mentioned in this E-Mail.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it is.
16 THE COURT: Yes, there is.
17 MR. DANDAR: Then I'll sit down and be
18 corrected.
19 THE COURT: Good.
20 THE WITNESS: But you are asking the wrong
21 person. I told you I have never seen this --
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q No, I'm asking you, it is true that either
24 Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton told you in this time period that
25 Mr. Minton was concerned that he was going to end up in
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1 jail?
2 A I don't know that.
3 Q I'm just asking you --
4 THE COURT: He said he doesn't know. He told
5 you that twice. Now, go on to the next question.
6 Okay?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Did Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton tell you, at or about
10 that time, that they felt the case was out of control?
11 A I never -- I never really heard those words that
12 the case was out of control. I mean, you know --
13 THE COURT: But you were being told that they
14 were very concerned that the Lisa McPherson case and
15 Lisa McPherson Trust was all getting inextricably
16 intertwined?
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 THE COURT: Courts were letting all these
19 documents be acquired. This is what is out of
20 control perhaps, right? So you were aware they were
21 all disturbed about this?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Disturbed at the discovery,
23 yes.
24 THE COURT: Well, disturbed with -- that the
25 Lisa McPherson Trust be shut down?
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1 THE WITNESS: Right.
2 THE COURT: You knew all that, did you? Or did
3 you?
4 THE WITNESS: You know, I didn't have an
5 understanding -- you know, in all honesty, you know,
6 Judge, Mr. Minton was going through this thing with
7 Judge Baird where he was to appear and he didn't
8 appear.
9 I understood none of that. I didn't understand
10 what was going on. I didn't understand what the big
11 problem was. If he was supposed to be deposed, you
12 simply come in and you get deposed. You may not
13 like it, you may not whatever.
14 But, you know, then we had these problems where
15 he can't come down, on and on. You know, a bad
16 situation just got worse.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q You knew that money didn't have anything to do
19 with Mr. Minton shutting down the Lisa McPherson Trust,
20 right?
21 A Yes.
22 THE COURT: Good time for a stop?
23 MR. WEINBERG: I think so because I have
24 another area to go to.
25 THE COURT: It is -- I need to take a little
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1 longer this afternoon. We'll be in recess until ten
2 after. Twenty minutes.
3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:50 to 3:15 p.m.)
4 _______________________________________
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Ready? Let's just make an
7 exhibit search here for one second to make sure we
8 don't have any originals up here.
9 THE WITNESS: I think we took care of that.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q All right, Mr. Prince --
12 A Yes?
13 Q -- you have talked several times about being in
14 the desert. Right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q There are two locations that are within a few
17 miles of one another that you have been referring to.
18 Right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q One is Hemet which is where the Golden Era
21 Productions is where you worked after you left RTC.
22 Correct?
23 A That is actually incorrect, Mr. Weinberg. It's
24 Gilman Hot Springs, near Hemet, but it is -- it is like its
25 own little separate town.
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1 Q Golden Era Productions is in Gilman Hot Springs,
2 and that is what you described as being in the desert? That
3 is one of the locations in the desert?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Then the other location in the desert is --
6 A Soboba Indian Reservation.
7 Q Is the what?
8 A Soboba Indian Reservation.
9 Q And that is where you -- that is where you had the
10 introspection rundown with Teresita. Right?
11 A It was actually behind the reservation in a
12 private-owned property, correct. Yes.
13 Q That is where you said the RPF was?
14 A Correct.
15 Q The incident that -- that had to do with the day
16 that you were relieved of your position at RTC and the guns,
17 that was at Gilman Hot Springs?
18 A Correct.
19 Q I want to show you some photos.
20 MR. WEINBERG: These are for you. This can be
21 marked -- this Booklet A, 1 through 11, but we'll
22 mark it as Exhibit 236. But what I have done, your
23 Honor, you have the same pictures, but they are in
24 this book like this. So A1 would be the first one.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay?
2 THE COURT: I can keep this?
3 MR. WEINBERG: You can give it back to us,
4 unless you want to keep it.
5 THE COURT: No. I'll give it back to you.
6 MR. WEINBERG: This is 236. I'm handing this
7 to Mr. Prince.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: Do I get a copy?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
11 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Now, if you look at A1 through A11, you recognize
14 that as being the location in Gilman Hot Springs that Golden
15 Era Productions was at where you say is in the desert.
16 Correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And if you would just flip through and just
19 describe very briefly A1, A2, through 11. Could you do
20 that?
21 A Yes. I think so.
22 This looks like a view from --
23 THE COURT: Tell me what you are talking about.
24 Is it A1?
25 THE WITNESS: A1.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 A This looks like a view from the dining area and
3 the qualifications area and the studio, the studio from a
4 perspective of the river bank, which is just further back
5 here, the dry riverbed.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q What is A2?
8 A A2, there is a building here that, you know --
9 wait a minute, yes, I do -- this is the dining -- this is
10 apparently an aerial shot of the dining area.
11 Q Okay. A3, do you recognize that building?
12 A This -- I think this may have been some new
13 construction since I have been there. I can't say. Do I
14 recognize this building? I can't rightfully say that I do.
15 THE COURT: Okay, that is an "I don't know."
16 And that is enough.
17 A Okay. I don't know.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Was Building 36 the main administrative offices of
20 Golden Era? That was on-site when you were there?
21 A Oh, is this where they do the E-meters and things
22 in there?
23 Q Do you remember that is where you were interviewed
24 by Mr. Rathbun when you left in 1992, that was the building?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q If you go to A4, do you recognize that as the
2 lake, with the administrative building in the background?
3 A Yes, I do, with the exercise trail.
4 Q And A5, do you recognize that as a sports field
5 for the crew?
6 A In all honesty, I don't recognize it, but I
7 believe it is.
8 Q And A6, do you remember there were crew basketball
9 courts?
10 A Yes. Yes, I do.
11 Q And A7, what is that?
12 A I have no earthly idea.
13 Q That is new, isn't it?
14 A I --
15 Q Or do you know?
16 A It is outside of my knowledge.
17 Q Okay. A8, is that another building that is new?
18 A It's something that is outside of my knowledge. I
19 don't know. I have never seen this on the property.
20 Q Now, you do recognize A9 as the set inside the
21 film studio where you were working?
22 A No, sir. You know, matter of fact, I