Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1072
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 9
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert Minton.
17
DATE: May 24, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
1073
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE and
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
23 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
24 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
25
1074
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Mr. Rick Spector
Ms. Sarah Heller
8 Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
9 Ms. Joyce Earl
Ms. Donna West
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1075
1 THE COURT: Okay. I called the Florida Bar.
2 And Ms. Bloemendaal was not there -- Bloemendaal,
3 but I talked to another gentleman whose name I can't
4 remember. But he was involved in another complaint
5 coming out of this case. Maybe you-all can figure
6 out which one it is. It is a complaint against
7 another lawyer in the case. And he was familiar
8 with the call -- the discussion.
9 So what he said was this is what
10 Ms. Bloemendaal had told Mr. Pope, this was not a
11 confidential letter.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: I said, "Okay, that is what I need
14 to know."
15 So I read it. And just -- I think I'll have
16 the clerk seal this, because it is in the nature of
17 a Bar matter. I'm not sure why the paragraphs
18 marked were marked, to tell you the truth.
19 MR. FUGATE: I highlighted them, Judge.
20 THE COURT: Well, I'm not sure why that is. If
21 you're -- if you're noting to me there has been a
22 complaint filed against Mr. Pope, that's -- that is
23 anybody's right to do, so I don't know what that --
24 well, I'm not sure why that is highlighted.
25 I also see where there is something about the
1076
1 allegation about Mr. Miscavige not having anything
2 to do with the death of Lisa McPherson certainly is
3 an issue -- that is an issue in the case.
4 And the last thing highlighted seems to be some
5 suggestion that Mr. Pope represents anyone, judges
6 or whatever that is all about.
7 He has never represented me, nor has his law
8 firm. Naturally I know Wally Pope. He has been a
9 lawyer in this community a long time. I was a
10 lawyer for a long time before I was a judge. I know
11 who he is. And he knows who I am.
12 As I said, I have almost always been a St.
13 Petersburg lawyer. He has always been a Clearwater
14 lawyer.
15 MR. FUGATE: Clearwater.
16 THE COURT: He has been in my court. He and
17 I -- he never represented me or anything like that
18 so I'm not sure why that is highlighted. But if
19 that was to find out whether --
20 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. It was
21 highlighted because it's another one of the
22 aspersions or accusations cast that are what we've
23 been looking at in the case. And that is one of the
24 things that I wanted to -- I tried to highlight
25 things I thought directly related to the issues.
1077
1 There is one I missed. If you look up in the
2 top of the last paragraph dealing with moneys, you
3 know, they are just areas -- actually, I didn't mean
4 to give you a highlighted copy, but I think I gave
5 you my highlighted copy of things we were going to
6 address. I'll be glad to take it back and give you
7 an unhighlighted copy.
8 THE COURT: No, I'm going to put this --
9 MR. FUGATE: That is fine.
10 THE COURT: -- in as the Court's exhibit.
11 Madam clerk, put it under seal, merely because --
12 I'm not sure exactly what it is, but as I said, I --
13 I have read it and -- and it will be there in the
14 event I should need it.
15 MR. FUGATE: There may come a time in the
16 proceeding that we may want to address that, and
17 unsealing it to ask cross-examination questions of
18 Mr. Dandar.
19 THE COURT: That is fine. If it has some
20 bearing on that, we'll do that.
21 MR. FUGATE: You'll be the --
22 THE COURT: But for now -- I don't think it's
23 an exhibit that really has --
24 MR. FUGATE: I didn't file it as an exhibit.
25 Actually, it was handed up to me, your Honor, by
1078
1 Mr. Pope.
2 THE COURT: Maybe it doesn't even have to be an
3 exhibit.
4 MR. DANDAR: I don't think it does.
5 THE COURT: Okay, give it back to me, madam
6 clerk. I agree with that.
7 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the paragraph Mr. Fugate
8 called --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Aspersions.
10 MR. DANDAR: -- aspersions is not aspersions.
11 We went through quite a few judges in the breach of
12 contract case in Clearwater because Mr. Pope
13 represented quite a few judges and they all recused
14 themselves. So I didn't feel comfortable, if there
15 was anybody on the committee that may look at that
16 that had anything to do with this law firm --
17 THE COURT: It's a big law firm in Clearwater
18 and --
19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the committee is in Tampa.
20 But I don't know what the materiality of that is.
21 THE COURT: Well, I don't, either. But it was
22 highlighted, so that is why we're probably dealing
23 with it.
24 Any way, I have read it and I'll have it up
25 here in the event it's needed.
1079
1 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: And I just wanted to report what
3 the lawyer from the Bar told me, that it was not, in
4 their opinion, a confidential letter, so you are not
5 waiving any confidentiality or anything of the sort
6 by my reading it, if that was your concern.
7 MR. DANDAR: That was it.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Mr. Minton, I'm going to show you what we have had
11 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 53.
12 THE COURT: Did you say defendant's, or
13 plaintiff's?
14 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff's.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q This is a letter that was given to us today dated
17 May 22, 2002 from an attorney in Geneva, Switzerland, is
18 that correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q Is he your lawyer?
21 A He is.
22 THE COURT: How do we know this is from
23 Switzerland? Oh, down here, "Geneva"?
24 MR. DANDAR: I would think so.
25 THE COURT: At the bottom? Okay.
1080
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q It says "Geneva LE." What does "LE" mean?
3 A Where does it say that?
4 Q Above the reference clause.
5 A It's in French. The "Geneva" part I understand.
6 But I don't know what "LE" means.
7 Q All right. This attorney --
8 THE COURT: I don't know if this is from
9 Geneva, Switzerland or not.
10 MR. DANDAR: I'll ask him.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q This attorney John Pierre Jacquemoud,
13 J-A-C-Q-U-E-M-O-U-D, what city and country is he located in?
14 A Geneva, Switzerland.
15 THE COURT: Well, now we know.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Okay. Was he involved in any degree whatsoever in
18 helping secure the funds that went through Operation
19 Clambake to LMT?
20 A No, he wasn't.
21 Q Was he involved in the $500,000 that came into the
22 LMT that was told in depositions by you and Ms. Brooks to be
23 anonymous sources?
24 A No.
25 Q Was he involved in any money transactions?
1081
1 A No. Other than between him and me.
2 Q Okay. Now, isn't it true, sir, that the Church of
3 Scientology, once they found out you were involved in
4 providing financial support to cases involving the Church of
5 Scientology -- not only did Mr. Elliot Abelson, counsel for
6 the Church of Scientology, call you on the phone, but he
7 also sent you a letter, a threatening letter?
8 A He did. I think that was a little bit later.
9 Q How much later?
10 A Mmm, well, sometime after the phone call in '97,
11 so I don't know how much later, but it had to do with
12 Clearwater and fomenting hatred in Clearwater.
13 THE COURT: If you don't mind, I think we'll
14 try to quit a little early today. It is Friday.
15 I'm just dragging.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Not only would we not mind,
17 but --
18 THE COURT: Okay, then let's do that.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Let me show you the letter of November 18, 1997
21 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 54. This is from Mr. Abelson,
22 is that right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q To you?
25 A To me.
1082
1 Q At the bottom of the first page, could you read
2 the paragraph out loud, please.
3 A "My client holds you, your associates and backers,
4 financial or otherwise, personally responsible for any and
5 all damages it has suffered or will continue to suffer as a
6 result of your tortious officious intermeddling in church
7 litigation. The Church will not tolerate such conduct. I
8 demand that you immediately withdraw all financial support
9 for such matters and am warning you that you and those you
10 are funding have crossed the threshold of legality."
11 Q Did this cause you any concern?
12 A No.
13 Q As far as your understanding is concerned, was
14 this letter including the case of Lisa McPherson?
15 A Oh, I would guess it was.
16 Q He mentions Dennis Erlich --
17 A I haven't read the whole part of the letter for a
18 long time, but --
19 Q One name mentioned in there is Dennis Erlich. Had
20 you -- I think you previously testified you did provide
21 financial support to Mr. Erlich?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q Did you also provide financial support to his
24 attorney?
25 A Morrison & Foerster?
1083
1 Q Yes.
2 A No.
3 Q As you sit here today, what is the total amount of
4 financial support you provided to Mr. Erlich?
5 A Mmm, I don't remember. It's a long time ago, but
6 $25,000 or something.
7 Q Was that a loan? Or a gift?
8 A It was a gift to -- it was actually a donation to
9 his ministry.
10 Q Which is called?
11 A I don't remember what it is called.
12 Q Is it a nonprofit corporation?
13 A It is.
14 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was the amount
15 again, Mr. Minton?
16 THE WITNESS: I think that was $25,000.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And this also mentions --
19 A Or thirty. I'm not sure.
20 Q This also mentions Keith Henson. As of November
21 of '97, had you provided support of any kind to Mr. Henson?
22 A Mmm, I'm not sure whether I had at that time. I
23 certainly did at some time. But I don't know whether, as of
24 the date of this letter, I had.
25 THE COURT: I can't remember, it's been so long
1084
1 ago, but when was it that you -- well, it was
2 October of '97 --
3 THE WITNESS: '97.
4 THE COURT: -- when the first check was sent,
5 was it?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. And there -- you know,
7 there were articles, I remember, in the newspaper
8 down here sometime just right after that, that
9 Scientology was complaining very loudly about this
10 contribution of funds into this case.
11 THE COURT: Into the Lisa McPherson case?
12 THE WITNESS: Wrongful death case, yes.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Minton, I think yesterday we established as of
16 August of 2001 you and I were no longer in communication.
17 Is that right?
18 A I don't think we established that.
19 Q Well, why is it that you had to have Mr. Merrett
20 contact me, through E-Mail, to tell me that there were no
21 more funds available from you to help with the Lisa
22 McPherson case?
23 A I don't know. I don't know why that was the
24 method used.
25 Q And why, in that E-Mail that we had Mr. Merrett
1085
1 talk about, that he suggested a meeting with himself,
2 Mr. Merrett and Stacy Brooks, but not you?
3 A I perhaps wasn't in town. I don't know.
4 Q Now, there has been some testimony about a verbal
5 criticism -- not verbal, but E-Mail or Internet criticism of
6 you, after word got out that you had stopped funding the
7 Lisa McPherson case.
8 When did you first realize that people were on the
9 Internet, criticizing you for that?
10 A Sometime around the time you were notified about
11 not funding the case.
12 Q And how many of those -- how many critics were on
13 the Internet criticizing you about that?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Do you know if they were criticizing you about
16 that because you had repeatedly said, throughout the years,
17 that you would never give up on the Lisa McPherson case?
18 A Oh, I think that was part of the criticism, yes.
19 Q Did that cause you a lot of emotional upset, the
20 criticism?
21 A You know, it bothered me a little bit in terms of,
22 you know, walking away from it.
23 Q Prior to August of 2001, did you ever speak to
24 anyone involved in the Lisa McPherson Trust at any time
25 about your concerns with income tax evasion?
1086
1 A Not that I know of.
2 Q Do you recall having an emotional breakdown, that
3 is the words I'm using, I don't know what else to call it,
4 where you actually cried --
5 A Yeah.
6 Q -- in front of Peter Alexander and Patricia
7 Greenway because of your -- you expressed you had a lot of
8 concerns of not paying your taxes?
9 A No. I have never had any crying episode in front
10 of Patricia Greenway or Peter Alexander.
11 Q Did you ever express to either one of them your
12 concerns about tax evasion?
13 A No.
14 Q Do you recall having -- again, what, my words --
15 an emotional breakdown in Stacy Brooks' house on Belleair
16 Beach where I was present?
17 A Well, you know, it's your word, "emotional
18 breakdown."
19 Q It is. It is.
20 A If somebody cries, that is hardly what I would
21 describe as an emotional breakdown.
22 Q Okay. Well --
23 A There was -- there was -- there has been a
24 constant troubling situation over my relationship with Stacy
25 Brooks, and my feelings for my wife and family from whom I
1087
1 have been legally separated since early 1999. And it
2 continues to this day to be a source of angst.
3 And, you know, you and Ms. Greenway have been
4 proponents of going back to my wife. And this subject came
5 up over at Stacy Brooks' house when you were there. And it
6 was very upsetting, the whole issue.
7 Q Was that the only issue?
8 A That is the only one I remember. That is the one
9 that I cried about. If there were other issues, you have to
10 remind me, because I don't remember any others.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Could we possibly date that?
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Do you know when that was?
14 A Mmm, it was spring or summer of 2001, I think.
15 THE COURT: Is this the time that Mr. Dandar
16 and Mr. -- Dr. Garko were there seeking money?
17 THE WITNESS: No. This was at Stacy Brooks'
18 house.
19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Thank you.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Dr. Garko was not there. Right?
22 A I don't believe he was.
23 Q Okay. And let's go back to this Philadelphia
24 meeting in August of '99. Do you remember --
25 A Was it August?
1088
1 Q Do you remember we --
2 A Was it August?
3 Q August of '99. I was up there in Philadelphia
4 taking a doctor's deposition in another case.
5 A Right.
6 Q You and Stacy Brooks came over and had dinner with
7 me. Do you remember that?
8 A Mmm, well, others had dinner with you, as well.
9 Q Well, we'll get to that. But you and Stacy Brooks
10 were there, correct?
11 A We came there to see you.
12 Q And Rod Keller was there?
13 A Rod Keller was at dinner.
14 Q Charlene --
15 A Charlotte Kates.
16 Q Charlotte Kates?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And weren't there two other people?
19 A I think you mentioned the other day that some
20 Scientologists came into the dinner.
21 Q Well, weren't there two other people sitting at
22 the table with us?
23 A Not that I can remember.
24 Q And do you recall that dinner where Stacy was
25 engaged in conversation with Charlotte and Rod Keller about
1089
1 Charlotte's recent departure from the Church of Scientology,
2 and you and I were engaged in the concerns or the emotions
3 that you were expressing on your marital relationship?
4 A I don't remember that.
5 Q But --
6 A But it was a dinner conversation. You know,
7 whatever we discussed we discussed. I don't know.
8 Q Well, we certainly didn't discuss the Lisa
9 McPherson case at dinner, did we?
10 A We didn't.
11 Q And it's your recollection that, either before or
12 after dinner, you, or Stacy Brooks in your presence, told me
13 that I had to emphasize the Scientology aspects of the Lisa
14 McPherson case more than I had been?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did --
17 A Just to refresh your recollection, we met before
18 dinner. We had dinner. Then we went up to, I think it was,
19 my hotel room with Charlotte Kates and Rod Keller and Stacy.
20 And there was something going on about some contact between
21 these people who had walked into the dinner from the
22 Philadelphia Org. I believe either I or Rod Keller or
23 Charlotte Kates called them up. And we were just kind of
24 horsing around in my room. Then we went to your room. That
25 is where the check was written, in your room, I think.
1090
1 Q Who was present when the check was written?
2 A Stacy, me and you.
3 Q And did Stacy say, "Bob, don't write that check,"
4 or anything like that?
5 A No.
6 Q Did she say anything about trying to get you not
7 to write a check?
8 A No.
9 Q And did I listen to that suggestion that you made?
10 A I believe you did.
11 Q How?
12 A Well, I mean, you subsequently added parties. You
13 subsequently started utilizing Stacy and Jesse more for
14 these depositions.
15 Q Mr. Minton, isn't it true that before that dinner
16 in August of '99 in Philadelphia, I had already been meeting
17 with Jesse Prince, and Jesse Prince's affidavit on the
18 culpability of David Miscavige in the death of Lisa
19 McPherson was already done, typed up, signed and sealed?
20 A Seven -- six days before, in fact.
21 Q Right. So you certainly didn't have any input on
22 that, did you?
23 A Well, not on that affidavit. I mean, Stacy had
24 input on that affidavit.
25 Q Really? What -- what part of the affidavit did
1091
1 she write of Jesse Prince?
2 A Well, I would be extremely surprised if she didn't
3 write some part of it, because she's written just about
4 everything that he's had written, because his English is
5 completely atrocious.
6 Q So you are just assuming she did?
7 A Well, she's testified here, I believe, that she
8 talked to Jesse a lot about this affidavit in terms of -- I
9 think she said something about getting him in the right
10 frame of mind, or something to that effect.
11 Q Do you have any idea what that means? How do you
12 get him in the mood to write an affidavit?
13 A You know, I -- I don't remember her testimony
14 exactly about that, other than the fact that she said that.
15 So --
16 Q You know that Jesse Prince wrote that affidavit in
17 my office -- do you know that? My conference room on
18 O'Brien Street?
19 A I don't know where he wrote it.
20 Q You weren't there?
21 A I don't think so.
22 Q Do you know it took him several days to write that
23 affidavit? Do you know that?
24 A I'm sure it had to take more than one.
25 Q Now, Mr. Minton, you have also alleged that
1092
1 because of your infusion of this check for $100,000 in
2 October of '97, I completely changed the allegations of the
3 complaint and made it into a murder -- a murder wrongful
4 death count. Is that your --
5 A I didn't say you completely changed the
6 allegations. I said you included the word "murder." You
7 clearly made it -- you had already indicated your
8 willingness to make it an intentional death case.
9 MR. DANDAR: Just bear with me a second here.
10 THE COURT: What are you going to do here?
11 MR. DANDAR: Well, I want to ask him to show me
12 where I changed anything based upon what he may have
13 said to me after October of '97.
14 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, would it be possible to
16 just hand him a copy of the complaint?
17 THE COURT: That is what I was thinking.
18 Wouldn't it be easier to have him look at it?
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I thought --
20 THE COURT: Well, go ahead, if you want to do
21 it this way.
22 THE WITNESS: What is this we're looking at?
23 THE COURT: This is a copy of one of the
24 complaints.
25 Could you identify for us which -- look at the
1093
1 first page for me so I know what we're looking at
2 here.
3 MR. DANDAR: This is the original complaint
4 filed in February of '97.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. This is the original
6 complaint?
7 MR. DANDAR: Right. Correct.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Here is Paragraph 18 -- well, actually, it is the
10 second Paragraph 18. I do have a problem sometimes on
11 reading things, apparently. But Paragraph 18, "The above
12 actions of the Church of Scientology were the result of
13 their premeditated design to follow their techniques,
14 bulletins and procedures, which was performed willfully,
15 intentionally, maliciously, and in total disregard of the
16 rights of Lisa McPherson, in addition to their culpable
17 negligence and gross negligence in failing to obtain timely,
18 appropriate emergency medical care through licensed medical
19 providers."
20 Do you see that, Mr. Minton?
21 A I do.
22 Q Okay. Now, here is the first amended complaint.
23 By the way, do you know that Vaughn Young helped
24 participate in preparing me and assisting me in drafting the
25 allegations concerning the operations of Scientology in the
1094
1 first amended complaint?
2 A I believe I have heard it testified about here.
3 Q Well, you know that Stacy Brooks turned over a
4 work product letter that I sent to her and her husband back
5 in May of '97 to the defendants during your negotiations in
6 2002 with Scientology?
7 A I don't know whether she did or not. I believe
8 she said she thought they already had it.
9 Q Paragraph 48 of the first amended complaint: "The
10 above actions of Scientology were the result of their
11 premeditated design to follow their techniques, bulletins
12 and procedures, which were performed by or at the direction
13 of Scientology willfully, intentionally, maliciously and in
14 total disregard of the rights of Lisa McPherson, in addition
15 to their culpable negligence and gross negligence in failing
16 to obtain timely appropriate emergency --" does that look to
17 be the same allegation after your check of $100,000,
18 Mr. Minton?
19 A It does. I mean, it sounds like the same thing.
20 Q Do you see the word "murder" in there?
21 A In this one?
22 Q Yes.
23 A In the first amended complaint? It's in there.
24 Q Okay. Maybe we'll do this at a break. I'm going
25 to have you read it and then you can come back and tell us
1095
1 where you see the word murder.
2 A All right, I will. I believe there is a copy of
3 it here.
4 Q Well, on a break we'll do that. Let's go -- let's
5 go now to the -- let's go now to 2002.
6 During January of 2002 isn't it true that you were
7 calling me up, asking me to meet you?
8 A That is utter rubbish. No.
9 Q Isn't it true the first suggestion from you to me
10 was, "I would like to meet you in Atlanta, Georgia," do you
11 recall that?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you recall the next suggestion by me was,
14 "Well, if you want to meet, let's met at Vanderbilt, I have
15 to fly there for Dr. Fogo's deposition in this case," and
16 you said okay, and I made a reservation for you at the new
17 hotel?
18 A At the Marriott?
19 Q Yes. Do you remember that?
20 A I remember you wanted me to come there and meet
21 you while you were there for this deposition.
22 Q Do you recall that I took a vacation with my
23 family, as I have been doing, I think, for 15 years to the
24 Cayman Islands for a week. And I told you I was going
25 there, if you wanted to meet me, come meet me there. You
1096
1 thought that was a good idea?
2 A No, that is not the way it was put. You wanted to
3 meet me, Mr. Dandar. The concept that you have laid out
4 here is I have been begging to meet with you.
5 The documentation that has already been presented
6 doesn't show that. You were looking for me to come to you.
7 You wanted money. I wasn't anxious to give it to you at
8 that time so I didn't want to meet.
9 Q Show me one letter that says I need to meet you
10 and get money. Do you have one?
11 A Well, that December 15th E-Mail, you know, the all
12 caps, you know, "Help, I need money," you know, "Please --"
13 Q How about January and February of 2002?
14 A What about them?
15 Q Do you have any E-Mails in that time period?
16 A Mmm, yes.
17 Q Do you have them with you?
18 A Well, in January there was the -- the thing from
19 the Vanderbilt. You know, you set that up independently. I
20 didn't tell you I was going to go to Vanderbilt, to
21 Nashville. You asked me. You made a hotel reservation.
22 It's my home town. My mother lives there. My two
23 brothers live there. There are plenty of places for me to
24 stay in Nashville. I don't need somebody to set up a hotel
25 for me.
1097
1 Q Wasn't it your suggestion for me to get a room
2 reservation for you, Mr. Minton?
3 A No, it was your suggestion. "I'm going to get a
4 room for you. And if you come, fine, you've got a room."
5 Q Then you -- isn't it true, Mr. Minton, you called
6 me up and suggested -- after I made a joke, I said, "Bob,
7 I'm the only person I know that hasn't been invited to your
8 New Hampshire home in all these years."
9 And you said, "Why don't you come up to New
10 Hampshire."
11 Do you remember that?
12 A You've said that several times, "I'm probably the
13 only person I know who hasn't come up to your house in New
14 Hampshire."
15 I said, "If you want to come up here, you are
16 welcome to come up here."
17 You wanted to come up for the purpose of talking
18 about the money you needed.
19 Q When you called me -- let me put it so we don't
20 argue. When we had a phone call about coming to New
21 Hampshire at the end of February of 2002 --
22 A Right?
23 Q -- was that on a speaker phone in my office?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q Do you know if anyone was listening on that phone
1098
1 call?
2 A I have no idea.
3 Q I called you back and said, "Is it all right if
4 Dr. Garko comes," correct?
5 A You did.
6 Q All right. Now, it's your testimony that at this
7 point in time you no longer trusted me, you no longer
8 trusted Dell Liebreich, you wanted nothing to do with the
9 estate, the wrongful death case, and yet you are agreeing to
10 have me come to your house in New Hampshire. Why?
11 A Well, first of all, when you came to New Hampshire
12 I told you I didn't trust you, the estate or Dell Liebreich.
13 Q When did you form that --
14 A Because -- well, I wrote it down -- Stacy Brooks
15 wrote it down as I dictated it to her the night before on
16 six or seven art pad pages, big pages.
17 And I said, "Look, this is what I want to talk to
18 Ken about when he's up here."
19 Look, I still liked you.
20 Q When did you stop liking me?
21 A I would say when I heard you testify in Judge
22 Baird's court.
23 Q About what?
24 A About this money, for example.
25 Q Oh. So you made these meetings with Scientology
1099
1 and came to the -- as you say -- set-the-record-straight
2 decision, and you still liked me then?
3 A I told you I -- I informed you before I even went
4 there, at least a week to ten days before I went. And you
5 remember exactly what I told you?
6 Q No.
7 A "I'm not going to do anything there to try to
8 screw you over in any way. Be sure of that. But there was
9 one person that I don't give a crap what happens to him, and
10 that was Patricia Greenway."
11 And you said, "Oh, Bob, don't do that."
12 Q I don't know about that, either.
13 But let's go back to the February --
14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to him
15 testifying.
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I'm sorry, I thought I was
17 doing a better job than that. I'm sorry.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Dr. Garko and I flew up on a Saturday to New
20 Hampshire. Correct?
21 A That's right.
22 Q And you sent -- or -- or Stacy Brooks at least
23 went into the airport to greet us, and you stayed outside in
24 the parking lot. Right?
25 A I was smoking in the car. Yes.
1100
1 Q All right.
2 A You can't smoke in the airport there.
3 Q Did you stay outside in the parking lot because
4 you didn't want to be confronted by anyone working for the
5 Church of Scientology?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. And after we got inside your truck, we all
8 drove to the supermarket. Correct?
9 A That is right.
10 Q And we went and shopped for food, anything we
11 wanted. Right?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q And at this point in time, you have already
14 decided that -- the night before, that I'm a person you
15 don't trust any more?
16 A That didn't mean I didn't still like you.
17 Q Okay. Now, while Stacy is cooking dinner that
18 night, you -- just before we sat down for dinner -- and I'm
19 going to use the word again and you correct me -- you had an
20 emotional breakdown. Is that true?
21 A Well, Ken, that is your terminology.
22 Q I know. I said that.
23 A Yes. I -- I did cry. You know, I was upset. And
24 Michael Garko was very cognizant of the fact that I was
25 upset.
1101
1 And one of the reasons that I was angry and not
2 trusting you is because by this time I was firmly of the
3 belief that you were involved with these people who were
4 doing this campaign, and that you were orchestrating it,
5 even.
6 Q Do you recall, before this weekend, sending Jesse
7 Prince into my office to relay a message to me?
8 A No. I have seen that in Jesse's affidavit. And
9 that is just not true.
10 Q Okay.
11 THE COURT: Before what weekend?
12 MR. DANDAR: The weekend of February 27th.
13 THE COURT: Oh, I thought you meant before this
14 weekend coming up.
15 A And to continue the answer there. And as you
16 know, we've had problems, you and I have had problems
17 before, relative to Jesse Prince coming into your office and
18 representing that he was speaking on my behalf.
19 If you remember, this problem came up several
20 times about the money, including around the time of that Key
21 West trip, because it became a major issue. And I told you
22 that nobody speaks for me, you need to talk to me if you
23 want to find out what I feel or how much money I'm going to
24 be able to give you next month or whatever it is.
25 You remember, we had these discussions about Jesse
1102
1 Prince coming in and falsely misrepresenting his speaking
2 for me.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Isn't it true, however, that what Jesse Prince
5 told me, before I flew up to New Hampshire, is the same
6 thing you told me in New Hampshire?
7 THE COURT: You need to be --
8 MR. FUGATE: Judge --
9 THE COURT: They had a lot of chats up there.
10 MR. DANDAR: Oh, about --
11 THE COURT: Wait a minute, Mr. Dandar.
12 They had a lot of talk over two days. So you
13 need to identify for Mr. Minton what exactly it is
14 that you're talking about.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Isn't it true that one of our many discussions in
17 New Hampshire concerned -- well, I'm going to back up, let
18 me do it chronologically.
19 When you cried before we sat down for dinner you
20 were really emotionally upset toward me. Correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q All right. You thought that I was no longer your
23 friend?
24 A Well, I found it hard to believe that a friend
25 would be orchestrating this type of smear campaign.
1103
1 Q So you assumed that I was orchestrating a smear
2 campaign because there were these people on the Internet
3 chat room, alt.religion.scientology, I guess criticizing you
4 severely for pulling out support of the Lisa McPherson case,
5 is that what you mean?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is there any other smear campaign besides the
8 Internet chat room?
9 A No. No, not chat room. This was
10 alt.religion.scientology.
11 Q What is it called?
12 A A news group.
13 Q It's a news group? Okay. Did I ever post on that
14 news group?
15 A Mmm, I think you might have once.
16 Q Really? What did I say?
17 A I don't remember. But I think I saw you post
18 something once.
19 Q Was it about you? Or a case? Or what?
20 A I don't remember. But, you know, I believe -- you
21 know, I could be wrong, Mr. Dandar, but I think you did.
22 Q It wasn't criticizing you, though, was it?
23 A No.
24 Q In fact, I think the defendants here have shown
25 me -- there are so many of these -- a posting of Dell
1104
1 Liebreich?
2 A Right, that she posted sometime in September to
3 raise money.
4 Q And that was in the course after John Merrett's
5 E-Mail saying you were no longer funding the case?
6 A Right.
7 Q And that posting by Dell Liebreich was not a
8 criticism of you, was it?
9 A It wasn't.
10 Q It was a noble plea for help in the case, wasn't
11 it?
12 A It was.
13 Q And there is a Dina Holmes, who is one of your
14 most vociferous critics, I guess, on the Internet. Would
15 you agree with that?
16 A I would say she qualifies in that category.
17 Q And she -- she hosts a website calls
18 Lisamcpherson.com. Are you aware of that?
19 A I knew there was a website,
20 Lisamcpherson.com-something.
21 Q And even though she's a vociferous critic of yours
22 on the new group alt.religion.scientology, the website
23 Lisamcpherson.com is not critical of you, is it?
24 A No, because you told me this. You actually asked
25 her to change what she had on there and you asked her to add
1105
1 some things, which was -- that was very nice of you.
2 Q Because we had no intention -- well, I don't know
3 about her. I can't speak for her. You're right.
4 But Dell Liebreich, nor I, had any intention to
5 denigrate you anywhere, would you agree with that?
6 A Not that I observed.
7 Q Okay. Now, did you instruct your attorney,
8 Mr. Howie -- no, no, I'm sorry, let's go back to the
9 February weekend in New Hampshire, I'm sorry, because you
10 said quite a bit about that.
11 At the dinner table -- anyway, when you said you
12 didn't trust me any more because you thought I orchestrated
13 this smear campaign, isn't it true I assured you repeatedly
14 that I did not do that?
15 A I believe you did try to offer some assurance you
16 didn't do it.
17 Q Okay.
18 A And I eventually felt that maybe you weren't as
19 involved in it as I thought.
20 Q All right. Now, we sat down at the dinner table.
21 There were four of us at the dinner table. You and I are
22 sitting right across from each other, correct?
23 A I don't remember how we sat. But there were four
24 of us at the dinner table.
25 Q Your back was to the fireplace. Do you remember
1106
1 that?
2 A I don't.
3 Q All right. And you told me, in front of
4 Dr. Garko, "I have no more money for you," do you recall
5 that?
6 A I did.
7 Q And then you said, "But I have friends in Europe,
8 and let's call him the "Fat Man," and he may be interested
9 in sending you some money. Do you recall that?
10 A I didn't use the term the "Fat Man" at all until
11 the next day.
12 Q Okay.
13 THE COURT: What did you say during that
14 conversation?
15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, I said that, you know,
16 I don't think there is anything I can do right now
17 but, you know, maybe I have some friends in Europe
18 who could be of assistance.
19 THE COURT: So you mentioned friends in Europe,
20 you just didn't use the words --
21 THE WITNESS: The "Fat Man."
22 THE COURT: It was basically correct what he
23 said except for the words the "Fat Man"?
24 THE WITNESS: Right. And as I stated in my
25 affidavit, the purpose of using that charade, as I
1107
1 called it, was to keep Dr. Garko in the dark about
2 me providing the money.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q And I think in your --
5 A At your request.
6 Q Yes, in your affidavit you said I previously
7 requested this. Is that right?
8 A Well, going back to May of 2000, you know, you
9 wanted to make sure that that $500,000 didn't get known to
10 Dr. Garko.
11 Q Do you know -- do you have any knowledge
12 whatsoever that I tell anybody who works for me how much
13 money I have?
14 A Well, I know what Dr. Garko has told me you have
15 told him.
16 Q Well, let's not get into hearsay.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor --
18 THE COURT: Yes, you asked the question.
19 MR. WEINBERG: You asked him the question. Let
20 him answer it.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Go ahead. What did Dr. Garko say about this?
23 A Dr. Garko --
24 THE COURT: I think I have heard it, but I
25 think it is a fair thing to say at this point again.
1108
1 A Dr. Garko said the first time -- well, he said,
2 first of all, that he had been aware of all of the money
3 before, even the $250,000 check written on Bank of America
4 in May of 2001 that was payable to Ken Dandar. That he had
5 been aware of all those checks before, but he had not been
6 aware ever of the $500,000 check and even the $250,000
7 check, which he was part of the crowd who came to New
8 Hampshire to solicit money. And he was shocked by it, he
9 said, when Lirot briefed you and him about the testimony.
10 And he said, you know, further that you went out
11 in the parking lot and had a heated conversation, and you
12 told him -- he said to you, "What do I have to do, Ken, to
13 get my money from you?"
14 And at that time I think he said he was eight
15 months behind in getting paid by you.
16 And you said to him, in a snarling -- repeating
17 what he said, in a snarly way, "Michael, there is nothing
18 you can do about it."
19 And he walked away, he said. And he heard you
20 grumble something. He turned around and started to come
21 back and said to himself, "Forget it."
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Anything else? Are you sure you covered
24 everything he said?
25 A That -- no. There is more he said.
1109
1 Q Oh. Keep going.
2 A Well, that is all he said about that -- the money.
3 That is what he said about the money.
4 Q Okay. Did he -- so he didn't know about the --
5 the UBS --
6 A Oh -- oh, yes -- no, the other things he said is
7 that for some time you had been telling him that you were
8 financing this out of your retirement account, you know,
9 financing the case out of your retirement account, and that
10 I had not been giving you money for a while. And even the
11 $250,000 in May of 2001 that was written on the Bank of
12 America account -- and I'm happy to look up the exhibit
13 number if you want -- that when you got that check, you told
14 Dr. Garko that you had spent that much money already out of
15 your retirement account and had to put it back in and,
16 therefore, you still didn't have any money.
17 Q Anything else, Mr. Minton?
18 A I think that is all on that subject.
19 Q Okay. So are you telling me and this Court that I
20 requested Dr. Garko to come with me to New Hampshire but we
21 were going to have code words and code names in front of him
22 when we started to discuss money?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And the whole purpose of the trip, I had been, as
25 you say, begging you to meet with you, was to get money from
1110
1 you and not let Garko know about it?
2 A To get money from me. You know, what you did with
3 Dr. Garko was your business. But what you wanted me to do
4 was not to let Dr. Garko know that the money was going to
5 come from me.
6 Q Are you sure that in your mind it wasn't Dr. Garko
7 you didn't want to know about money given to me but, rather,
8 it was Stacy Brooks who you didn't want to find out that you
9 wanted to give money to me?
10 A Mr. Dandar, that is ridiculous. That is
11 absolutely not true. Yes, Stacy did not want me to give any
12 money to you. Stacy -- you know, Stacy is aware of how much
13 money I have given to you. You know how she feels, the
14 problems in the case, the perjury and everything. You know
15 exactly how she felt. I didn't have to hide that from Stacy
16 Brooks.
17 You know, I have done -- if I would have listened
18 to everything she said, you know, I wouldn't be in so much
19 trouble now.
20 Q How long ago would you have been out of the -- as
21 you call it -- Scientology litigation business if you had
22 listened to Stacy Brooks?
23 A No sooner than I'm going to be now.
24 Q Well, she didn't want you to get out of the
25 Scientology litigation business back in the summer of 2001?
1111
1 A It still wouldn't have made it happen any quicker.
2 Because as I told her -- as I told her at that time, "Stacy,
3 look, you have to understand, we're so enmeshed in this, you
4 know, what on earth do you think we can do to distance
5 ourselves from this case? You know, we're so immersed in
6 it, we're sucked into it, there is no way out. We can't
7 just walk away and say, 'God, I wish this never happened.'
8 We are under subpoenas, we're under court orders. You just
9 can't walk away from it if you are in it."
10 Q In the summer of 2001, you had not committed any
11 perjury yet in your depositions because they didn't take
12 place until September and October. Is that right?
13 A I believe the money had already been a perjury
14 matter before that.
15 Q So the -- you're talking about the May 2000
16 deposition?
17 A The $1,050,000 deposition, yes.
18 Q Where you were asked how many checks you wrote,
19 and you had testified $1,050,000?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that question. He
21 was asked a lot more questions than that, how many
22 checks he wrote. He was asked how much money he
23 gave -- Mr. Minton gave to him.
24 THE COURT: I realize there is a difference of
25 opinion here as to whether that -- but I don't
1112
1 really think that the subtlety needs to be taken up
2 with this witness. You can make that subtle
3 argument between counsel to me.
4 MR. DANDAR: All right. All right.
5 THE COURT: That is, it is Mr. Minton's
6 testimony that it is his belief that he committed
7 perjury in that May affidavit through not disclosing
8 that $500,000 check. Whether that is, in fact, true
9 or not is a matter that you-all can argue if it
10 makes a difference, but, I mean, that can be
11 argued -- he wouldn't know, to be honest with you,
12 all of the nuances of the crime of perjury.
13 Frankly, I don't know them very well, either. I am
14 learning more than I knew before --
15 MR. FUGATE: Or ever wanted to know.
16 THE COURT: -- a few weeks ago.
17 THE WITNESS: Mr. Howie gave me the biggest
18 nuance, was for each count of perjury, that you can
19 spend 7 years in jail.
20 THE COURT: Well, I think he's a little short
21 there by about 8 years, isn't he? Isn't it a second
22 degree crime? Or is it third degree?
23 MR. HOWIE: It's a second degree felony.
24 THE COURT: Fifteen years in prison.
25 MR. HOWIE: I think we may have been discussing
1113
1 the Criminal Punishment Code.
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
3 THE COURT: There are two kinds of perjury.
4 One is perjury-perjury as most people know it. That
5 is a 15-year offense. One is just inconsistent
6 statements, very little as far as intent or
7 anything, inconsistent statements, as I recall,
8 under certain circumstances. That is a third degree
9 felony. That is 5 years in prison for each episode.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q I'm pretty sure you and I differ on this, but I
12 just want to establish this as a predicate question. The
13 May 2000 UBS check, your testimony is you told me that was
14 your money. Correct?
15 A I told you both before I got it, after I got the
16 check. Yes. Yes.
17 Q In your affidavit you say that I was under a court
18 order to disclose that $500,000 check. Do you recall that?
19 A I'm saying you told me that you hadn't reported
20 the check, that's all that I said --
21 Q All right.
22 A -- to the Court.
23 Q And did I -- well, if I told you that, did I also
24 tell you I was under no court order to report any money to
25 the Court or to the defendants after January of 2000?
1114
1 A I'm merely telling you what you told me. That,
2 "You can't do that. I haven't reported it to the Court."
3 Q Did the $500,000 to LMT, the anonymous donation
4 that is really your money, and the $300,000 Operation
5 Clambake money, did that all come from the same financial
6 institution?
7 A Mmm, no.
8 Q Did it come from the same country?
9 A Did what come from the same country?
10 Q Those two payments to the LMT?
11 A Mmm, I believe so.
12 Q Okay. Did the money that was in the UBS check of
13 May of 2000 to me, did that come from the same institutions
14 as the Clambake money and other anonymous money to the LMT?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. He just said the
16 Clambake and anonymous were two different
17 institutions.
18 THE COURT: That is true. Sustained.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Did the money, in May of 2000, come from any of
21 the other two institutions?
22 THE COURT: Either of the other?
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Either of the other?
25 A Yes.
1115
1 Q Okay. And did the March 2002 UBS check come from
2 either one of the institutions that LMT got money from?
3 A Ask me that again.
4 Q Okay. The March 2002 UBS check --
5 A Yes?
6 Q -- that you say is your money, did that come from
7 one, or the other, of the two institutions that sent the LMT
8 money?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. The UBS check that went to Courage
11 Productions, did that come from one, or the other, of the
12 two institutions that sent in the -- that was the source of
13 the LMT money?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. So all we're dealing with are two
16 institutions from which the money came for all of the UBS
17 checks?
18 A Right.
19 Q Okay. Now, were there more institutions, though,
20 involved in transferring money from one to another before it
21 went to the UBS bank?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay. Are the accounts from these institutions
24 that you have refused to disclose in your name?
25 A I'm going to plead the Fifth Amendment on that
1116
1 question.
2 Q Are they numbered accounts?
3 A I'm also pleading the Fifth Amendment on that
4 question.
5 Q Does your wife have an interest in the accounts?
6 A I'm going to plead the Fifth Amendment on that
7 question.
8 Q Now, Mr. Howie -- no, let's go back to the -- to
9 the New Hampshire weekend.
10 Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, at that dinner table in
11 front of Dr. Garko, you said, "My friends in Europe may be
12 interested in sending you money, but first you need to write
13 a letter to me and you need to get these people to stop
14 criticizing me on the Internet"?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Did I send you a letter as a result of that
17 conversation?
18 A The suck-up letter, yes.
19 Q That you call the suck-up letter?
20 A Yes.
21 Q But that was at your request?
22 A It was. I stated it.
23 Q Oh, sorry.
24 THE COURT: He said he was sucking up to you
25 but that is what he asked you to do, is that --
1117
1 THE WITNESS: Right. Right.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Do you think there is anything in what you call
4 the suck-up letter written by me that is not truthful?
5 A Yes. I think there are things in the suck-up
6 letter that are not truthful.
7 For example, the highlighted "secret agreement."
8 Q Oh. Okay. So it mentions a secret agreement.
9 You say one existed, right?
10 A I didn't come up with the term. You did. And you
11 put it in the letter.
12 Q Okay. And so did Mr. Merrett lie about that
13 yesterday, too?
14 A I wasn't here when he testified about it but I
15 heard that he testified about it.
16 Q Mr. Merrett said there was never an agreement
17 between me or the estate and you or the LMT to give any
18 amount of proceeds, over and above the loans that you
19 advanced. Is that --
20 A If that is what he said, he said it incorrectly.
21 Q Okay.
22 A He may not have known.
23 Q Mr. Merrett said yesterday that you posted on the
24 Internet and you put it in an -- interviews in the Boston
25 Globe or wherever, TV, wherever --
1118
1 A Yeah?
2 Q -- that there was this agreement that the LMT
3 would get the bulk of any proceeds from the wrongful death
4 case.
5 A Right.
6 Q And he said he confronted you about that, and you
7 told him, "Well, I know that's not true. I just wanted to
8 get Scientology all riled up about it."
9 A That is a total fabrication on his part. That is
10 not true.
11 Q What would be the motive of Mr. Merrett to lie
12 about that?
13 A You'll have to find out what his other motives
14 were for lying yesterday. I don't know.
15 Q You're not a lawyer, but do you have any idea of
16 the consequences of a member of the Florida Bar lying to a
17 circuit court judge?
18 A Do you?
19 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike.
20 THE COURT: Yes, that will be granted. We
21 really can't go there. We need to kind of move
22 through this. So just answer his question.
23 A I don't know.
24 THE COURT: Well, for one thing, it would be
25 the same thing as anybody else lying, it is perjury.
1119
1 Number two, a lawyer stands to lose a lawyer's
2 license, because that will just not be tolerated by
3 the licensing -- well, won't be tolerated by the
4 Florida Bar and, I dare say, won't be tolerated by
5 any other state bar that I could imagine.
6 MR. FUGATE: None that I'm aware of.
7 THE COURT: None that I'm aware of.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Now, the $100,000 that Gerry Armstrong paid you
10 back, did that come from you?
11 A It did.
12 THE COURT: I'm sorry? The $100,000 that Gerry
13 Armstrong paid you back came from you?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Oh --
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor --
17 THE COURT: -- I don't owe you any money, but I
18 wish I could find some folks I did owe money to.
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor?
20 THE COURT: Sir?
21 THE WITNESS: I just want to pull out some of
22 these things that I showed you yesterday --
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: -- and one that I didn't show you
25 yesterday because I only read it last night.
1120
1 THE COURT: What is this now?
2 THE WITNESS: This is from the April 8
3 deposition.
4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. The April 8 deposition?
5 Okay. I'm not sure exactly what you're showing me.
6 I had asked -- you made some statement
7 yesterday about some recollection you had, and you
8 were going to show me where it was in your
9 deposition -- what it was in your deposition that
10 caused you to remember this so late in this
11 proceeding.
12 And what you are suggesting is you found
13 something else?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, I read this -- you know,
15 this was the last deposition that I read last night.
16 And there are some things in this April 8 one which
17 we had already stated on the record that there were
18 some corrections that needed to be made to it.
19 One of those involves Gerry Armstrong.
20 THE COURT: Oh. Where is that?
21 THE WITNESS: It is --
22 THE COURT: Can we --
23 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's Page 117 on line 24.
24 You know, I'd previously stated that I didn't
25 know where Gerry Armstrong got his hands on a
1121
1 hundred grand. And I'm correcting that testimony by
2 saying that he got it from me.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Well, there is more lies on that page, isn't
6 there, Mr. Minton --
7 A Yes. I have got them highlighted in yellow.
8 Q -- that has to do with Clambake money and the
9 $500,000 anonymous donation to the LMT?
10 A That's right.
11 Q We're jumping ahead, but this is April 8, 2002,
12 after you have already conferred with representatives of the
13 Church of Scientology to, so-called, set the record
14 straight, and you are lying in your deposition. Why would
15 you do that?
16 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I object. Mr. Minton,
17 I think, was attempting to recant. And he was
18 interrupted by Mr. Dandar in the middle -- I don't
19 know if he was done.
20 THE COURT: Overruled, counsel.
21 A I'm not sure, Mr. Dandar.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Well, could it be and isn't it true that the
24 reason you kept the lie about the LMT money and the Gerry
25 Armstrong money is because your deal with Scientology was to
1122
1 destroy the Lisa McPherson case and not go after the LMT
2 which was dissolved, or Gerry Armstrong who nobody cares
3 about?
4 A Absolutely incorrect.
5 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, also assumes facts not
6 established, that there is a deal.
7 A And, you know, at the time of this deposition --
8 THE COURT: If that was an objection, it is
9 overruled. I think it is an appropriate question.
10 A At the time of this deposition, within minutes, as
11 you can see, of -- of this, we went out of the room, and we
12 came back in and we told Mr. Rosen that there had been some,
13 Mmm, wrong answers given and we had to correct them.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Well, why didn't you do it right then and there?
16 A Because Mr. Rosen saw how upset I was about this.
17 Q And you think Mr. Rosen cared that you were upset?
18 A Well, you see what he said here on Page 120, and
19 he said, "We'll continue this deposition."
20 THE COURT: I know, perhaps you do, too,
21 Mr. Minton, that Mr. Rosen was quite a bit nicer
22 throughout, he was really quite polite and quite a
23 gentleman, wasn't he, on that April 8?
24 THE WITNESS: I tell you, he was much nicer
25 than any other one.
1123
1 THE COURT: I'm going to tell you something. I
2 also read that October 11 and 12 deposition, and
3 there was quite a change and turn-about face in
4 Mr. Rosen's behavior in those two depositions,
5 wasn't there?
6 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
7 THE COURT: As a matter of fact, in the one
8 deposition he was giving you notice, trying to get
9 you to pay judgments, trying to have you get out a
10 checkbook --
11 THE WITNESS: Right there on the spot.
12 THE COURT: -- right there on the spot, right
13 in the middle of a four-hour deposition?
14 THE WITNESS: Right.
15 THE COURT: And he was just as sweet as pie,
16 comparably speaking, in the April 8 deposition,
17 true?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: I'm kind of curious, because I
20 thought in this April 8 deposition, which was the
21 day before you were going in to speak to Judge
22 Baird, that the assumption was that everything you
23 were going to say there, now that you'd agreed to
24 set the record straight, would be true.
25 Is that why you got upset is because you were
1124
1 still lying?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: So, really, after you agreed --
4 THE WITNESS: You know, there -- there --
5 THE COURT: I need to take a look here for a
6 minute. I want to ask you a question, Mr. Minton.
7 I noticed back in the deposition, particularly
8 the deposition of -- both September taken by Mr.
9 Moxon, and the deposition in October taken by
10 Mr. Rosen, now that I read them over, after having
11 sat through this deposition last night until the wee
12 hours of the morning, I wondered if you noticed
13 this, too.
14 Did it appear to you, in reflecting what was
15 being asked in those two depositions, that regarding
16 these moneys that were coming from Europe, the
17 $500,000, the $300,000, that they already knew about
18 it?
19 THE WITNESS: What?
20 THE COURT: The money, the $500,000 and the
21 $300,000, Operation Clambake?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe they'd already
23 gotten the bank records from Bank of America by
24 then.
25 THE COURT: So they already knew about all of
1125
1 that?
2 THE WITNESS: Well, certainly in the October
3 one they did, because Mr. Rosen had the bank
4 records, I know. I remember that.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon, when did you get those
6 records, do you remember that?
7 MR. MOXON: Yes, I got some of the records from
8 LMT at the Stacy Brooks' deposition. She revealed
9 them.
10 MR. DANDAR: But, Judge --
11 THE COURT: Wait a second. When was that?
12 MR. MOXON: In August.
13 THE COURT: In August?
14 MR. MOXON: Yes.
15 MR. FUGATE: Of?
16 MR. MOXON: 2001.
17 THE COURT: So Ms. Brooks had given you all
18 this data about this Clambake and all that stuff
19 that I just gave you the other day?
20 MR. MOXON: No. We just got some of the
21 records. We tried to piece together what was going
22 on because we saw transcripts. Remember, we got
23 bank records, we had a couple hearings about the
24 bank records from the Bank of America, you recall
25 there was a phone hearing and motions for protective
1126
1 orders, there was a lot of litigation that fall,
2 particularly Judge Beach -- mostly with Judge Beach,
3 but some with you, and we'd gotten some records.
4 And there was some alarming very strange, unusual
5 transfers. And we are trying to figure out what in
6 the world is going on, particularly one that looked
7 like there were these transfers that may have been
8 going to Dandar, we didn't know what was going on.
9 THE COURT: I really need to ask you, did it
10 appear to you that the Church of Scientology already
11 knew about stuff that you had no idea that they knew
12 about when Mr. Moxon took your deposition in
13 September?
14 THE WITNESS: I think they already knew about
15 this $300,000 and $500,000 having gone into the LMT.
16 THE COURT: And the money -- did they know
17 anything about money going to Mr. Dandar?
18 THE WITNESS: Not that I know of. I don't
19 believe they did.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, as I said, as I read
21 it over, I thought, wow, they knew a lot more than I
22 would have thought they knew back then.
23 It really doesn't matter. It was what was in
24 your mind. In your mind, you were not concerned
25 that they already had information that you never
1127
1 dreamt that they would have because you were trying,
2 obviously, to hide it from them, you have already
3 testified about that.
4 THE WITNESS: Right. But I believe Stacy
5 Brooks had to testify that -- I don't know whether
6 this was the one where she was threatened to go to
7 jail or what, but there was -- I know she had
8 testified about some of this stuff.
9 THE COURT: It may be the reason I don't know
10 that because I don't have Ms. Brooks' deposition.
11 MR. DANDAR: Didn't we give it to you?
12 Mr. Lirot has our copy.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, that -- just for the
14 record --
15 THE COURT: So if it is right, obviously when I
16 was reading the deposition it was pretty clear --
17 THE WITNESS: They did know about it.
18 THE COURT: They did know about it? So however
19 it was he knew about it, it was pretty clear to you
20 it had been something you had been very careful
21 about trying to hide from the Church of Scientology
22 for the reasons you have already said, and the fact
23 that you are, were and -- in September and are to
24 this very day claiming the Fifth Amendment, this was
25 a concern, I presume, way back in September.
1128
1 THE WITNESS: Sure. Sure it was.
2 THE COURT: This was a fairly elaborate scheme
3 that had been gone through, at least as to this
4 $300,000 Clambake contribution, to hide it from
5 Scientology, and to hide it from what -- whatever
6 else it is that you're trying to made hide it from
7 or not incriminate yourself.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, in May of 2000 when you
11 handed me the $500,000 UBS check, you knew at that time that
12 the only money the Church of Scientology was interested in
13 learning about was money that came from you?
14 A No.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, I don't --
16 A No.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I guess if he understands, it is
18 okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q You didn't have that understanding?
21 A Well, just from what I understand you are saying
22 is that the Church of Scientology was only interested in
23 going into discovery on moneys coming from me?
24 Q Right.
25 A That is what you are saying?
1129
1 Q Right.
2 A That had nothing to do with why the check was
3 issued the way it was.
4 Q Well, did you have an understanding, back in May
5 of 2000, that you were the only person they were interested
6 in in obtaining information from as to funds going to the
7 Lisa McPherson case?
8 A I think that is an accurate description of what
9 was going on at the time. That's who they were inquiring
10 about.
11 But, you know, you're the one who wanted to put
12 this money into a separate account. You weren't going to
13 run it through your trust account. You were going to tell
14 the employees that you were financing this case out of your
15 retirement funds.
16 THE COURT: Well, you were trying to hide it,
17 too, weren't you Mr. Minton? What is fair is fair.
18 I don't know what it was Mr. Dandar was trying to
19 do. We're going to hear about it. But you, sir,
20 certainly didn't want any more money for anybody
21 else to trace from this country. Did you?
22 THE WITNESS: Mmm --
23 THE COURT: You were perfectly happy to hide
24 that $500,000 and have it come over the way it came
25 over. That is a lot of money.
1130
1 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I could have
2 written the check here. But, you know, I did it --
3 and, you know, at the time, you know, it didn't dawn
4 on me, really, that I was doing this to avoid any
5 discovery from Scientology about it.
6 It was that this is the way Mr. Dandar asked me
7 to do it. And I said fine. I mean, this was --
8 this was $500,000 that, in Judge Moody's court, Ken
9 Dandar, with a trial date set, said, "This will take
10 me through trial."
11 THE COURT: So your testimony to me is the only
12 money that you cared about hiding from whatever it
13 is you are taking the Fifth Amendment for was the
14 $500,000 that you paid to LMT and the $300,000 that
15 you went through the elaborate scheme for to pay to
16 LMT, but that same motivation did not exist in the
17 $500,000 check to Ken Dandar and the $250,000 check
18 to Ken Dandar? That same motive did not exist? Is
19 that what you're telling me?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, it didn't, your Honor.
21 Also, this is a year earlier. $500,000 in May
22 of 2000, you know. And I subsequently gave
23 Mr. Dandar a check for $250,000, you know, on my
24 bank account here after that.
25 THE COURT: Well, I understand that. But -- I
1131
1 don't know how much money you keep in your account.
2 But I do know that is $750,000. That is a lot of
3 money. I don't know how much you keep in your
4 American accounts and I, frankly, am not going to
5 ask you because I don't care. But that is a lot of
6 money. And if you weren't keeping that much money,
7 well, then that would kind of deplete you.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Mr. Minton, since -- for the years '97, '98, '99,
11 2000, to 2002, have you underreported your income to the
12 Internal Revenue Service?
13 MR. HOWIE: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Overruled. And I'll tell you
15 exactly why. Because there is an allegation the
16 very reason, the very thing, that the Church of
17 Scientology was using was either extortion or
18 whatever about money laundering, racketeering or
19 income tax. And, therefore, that becomes a relevant
20 inquiry. I'm not saying it is true or not true. I
21 am saying it is a relevant inquiry.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just -- I mean,
23 these are just allegations. I just want to make the
24 record clear.
25 THE COURT: I understand that. But --
1132
1 MR. WEINBERG: I understood your ruling. I
2 mean, we have been quiet every time Mr. Dandar said
3 extortion and blackmail and all those things. I
4 just wanted to make clear these are his allegations
5 and that is all it is.
6 THE COURT: I understand that is his
7 allegation. However, in this hearing he's allowed
8 to pursue his allegation, just as you are.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
10 THE COURT: And I tried to make it clear many,
11 many times, and I'm not suggesting any of these
12 things are true, but these things have to be
13 explored so that this hearing can be done and
14 rulings can be made.
15 A I'm going to plead the Fifth Amendment on that
16 question.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Does Stacy Brooks know anything about whether your
19 income tax reporting in the United States is accurate?
20 A I wouldn't think she would have any idea.
21 Q You kept that from her?
22 A She's never been involved with it.
23 Q You haven't told her?
24 A I haven't.
25 Q Did you ever tell her you were concerned about tax
1133
1 evasion?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you ever tell her you were concerned about
4 money laundering?
5 A No -- well -- well, yes.
6 Q When?
7 A In connection with these charges that were filed
8 in Switzerland.
9 Q Okay. What charges were filed in Switzerland?
10 A Mmm, the Nigerian -- back in June of '9- -- no,
11 June of 2000, the Nigerian high commissioner in London wrote
12 a letter to the Swiss prosecutor in Bratosa (phonetic) and
13 alleged that the business that I had done twelve years
14 earlier in Nigeria, the business that had finished 12 years
15 earlier in Nigeria, had involved money laundering, forgery
16 of financial documents and a third allegation.
17 Q And did the prosecutor in Switzerland get
18 interested in that charge?
19 A Not to my knowledge. What happened was that the
20 way the charge was alleged, it was alleged that I somehow
21 facilitated the laundering of $12 billion by a Nigerian
22 dictator named Soni Abacha, who came to power the year after
23 I stopped doing business in Nigeria.
24 You know, I have never been to Nigeria, I never
25 met any of these people who were in power, and this
1134
1 allegation was basically bogus.
2 Numerous attempts were made to convince the
3 prosecutor that these charges were bogus. People who were
4 familiar with money laundering and familiar with the debt
5 trading business that I was involved in went to visit the
6 police in Switzerland, the prosecutor's office in
7 Switzerland. They wrote affidavits explaining this
8 business, to convince the Swiss authorities that there had
9 not been any crime and this was a bogus allegation.
10 But one -- the main charge was this $12 billion of
11 money laundering.
12 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was looking at
13 something. The one something charge?
14 THE WITNESS: The main charge --
15 THE COURT: The main charge?
16 THE WITNESS: -- was $12 billion worth of money
17 laundering that enabled this Nigerian dictator whose
18 last name was Abacha, A-B-A-C-H-A, to steal from the
19 country $12 billion, basically.
20 THE COURT: When you say the charge, this is
21 again -- I'm just -- maybe it is late in the week --
22 but this charge was a charge brought against you?
23 Or being looked at against you? Or looked at
24 against this Nigerian leader?
25 THE WITNESS: Well, in fact what had happened
1135
1 earlier is the Swiss authorities conducted a
2 large-scale investigation into this Abacha and
3 seized moneys and things of that nature that he had
4 stolen from Nigeria and put in Switzerland and
5 Luxemburg and the Cayman Islands and Panama and
6 everywhere else. So the Swiss authorities had this
7 huge investigation going -- also in London -- had
8 this huge investigation going, and this charge
9 from -- or this letter from the Nigerian high
10 commissioner in London was an attempt to add this
11 within that investigation that the Swiss authorities
12 were doing.
13 And, you know, it's two years -- almost two
14 years later. The Swiss authorities have said, you
15 know, "We're not in a position to give you a letter
16 saying that we're not pursuing this case because
17 it's a small element within a much bigger case. And
18 until we get rid of the whole case, we can't say,
19 you know, you're off the hook."
20 THE COURT: That is you personally?
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 THE COURT: Okay. But this is the same
23 Nigerian money laundering $12 billion scheme that
24 Stacy Brooks wrote about in her harassment of Bob
25 Minton where she alleged that the Church of
1136
1 Scientology was -- was over there in Nigeria or in
2 the business community over there trying to keep
3 that stirred up in some fashion?
4 THE WITNESS: Well, they definitely stirred it
5 up. Definitely.
6 THE COURT: And that was true?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe it was true.
8 THE COURT: Well, she believed it was true, she
9 put it in -- and you believed, certainly, it was
10 true at the time?
11 THE WITNESS: I did.
12 THE COURT: So -- okay.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q And did there ever come a point in time when the
15 Swiss prosecutor told you, "Okay, you're off the hook"?
16 A I believe I just testified --
17 THE COURT: He just said that they could not
18 let him off the hook because he said it was part of
19 a bigger -- this is about the Abacha fellow, right?
20 THE WITNESS: Right.
21 THE COURT: And until that was resolved, they
22 couldn't let him off the hook.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q So it is still ongoing?
25 A It's still pending. Yes.
1137
1 Q And --
2 A You know, I haven't been charged with anything.
3 You know, if I was charged, you know, I would actually have
4 some rights. But right now I'm just --
5 THE COURT: And the actual charge is money
6 laundering, or racketeering, or fraud, or what did
7 you say --
8 THE WITNESS: Money laundering, forgery of
9 financial documents, and maybe the third was fraud.
10 I'm not sure.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q When did it come to your attention that this
14 was -- this was going on involving you with the Swiss
15 government and Swiss prosecutor?
16 A Just after that -- sometime within a month or two
17 of that letter going to the Swiss prosecutor.
18 Q What month was that? What year? What month?
19 A Well, the Swiss prosecutor -- the letter went to
20 the Swiss prosecutor in June of 2000.
21 Q Was there anything going on in the summer of 2001?
22 A No.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I assume you mean with regard to
24 this case?
25
1138
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q With regard to the Swiss prosecution?
3 A No.
4 Q Did you have evidence in the summer of 2000 that
5 the Church of Scientology investigators or other operatives
6 were behind getting the Swiss prosecutor to look at you?
7 A There -- I certainly had a pretty strong feeling
8 that -- that this investigator, David Lee, was involved in
9 this.
10 Q The same David Lee --
11 THE COURT: That seems odd to use the term
12 "operatives." What in the hell is a church
13 operative?
14 MR. DANDAR: Someone working undercover, like
15 Laura Terepin was working for David Lee, the other
16 undercover person you say was connected and working
17 for the Church of Scientology.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Right, Mr. Minton?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Now, back in New Hampshire, Sunday morning, you,
22 Stacy Brooks and I and Dr. Garko, I believe --
23 THE COURT: Wait a second, if we're going back
24 there, this is a wonderful time for a break, so
25 stop. We'll be in recess until 3:15 or 3:20. But
1139
1 go on and --
2 MR. WEINBERG: You think we'll go, what?
3 THE COURT: We'll break around 4:30. How is
4 that?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Sounds good.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'll have Mr. Minton read this
7 complaint.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Look at that complaint, if
9 you would. Just take it with you downstairs.
10 THE WITNESS: Which complaint?
11 THE COURT: Whatever he's going to give you,
12 the first amended complaint. See if you can find
13 the word "Murder."
14 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
15 THE COURT: Specifically the word "Murder." I
16 guess that is what he wants you to look for.
17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken at 3:00 to 3:22.)
18 _________________________________
19 THE COURT: Well, I told Mr. Keane -- I saw him
20 at lunch -- that I had that box -- he just had a
21 jury that is going to be instructed at 1:30 -- but
22 that I haven't seen him so I don't know whether his
23 jury is out or what.
24 MR. MOXON: I spoke to him just now at break
25 and he's still waiting for the jury but he said he
1140
1 would stop up and get the box.
2 THE COURT: Fine. But I want to talk to him
3 before he gets it. So if I don't have a chance to
4 deal with him, he'll just have to get it next week.
5 MR. MOXON: Okay.
6 THE COURT: And I guess what I need to see is
7 the latest order to make sure he has the latest
8 order. There are so many orders around, that I have
9 seen floating around, that I need to see. What does
10 he have?
11 MR. MOXON: I have given him all of the orders,
12 your Honor. But I'll make sure he has the latest.
13 THE COURT: Well, give me all of the orders,
14 would you, so I can look through and see what I
15 think he needs to do.
16 MR. MOXON: Okay. And Mr. McGowan and I
17 already talked, and he's stipulating that I could
18 look at these tapes in Mr. Keane's office and just
19 copy sections that were related to the issues in
20 this case, and if there is any dispute as to any of
21 it, we'll bring it to the Court.
22 THE COURT: Well, that is not acceptable to me.
23 Mr. Keane is not to turn over those tapes unless
24 they are relevant.
25 MR. MOXON: Okay.
1141
1 THE COURT: So, no, you cannot look at them
2 because there may be things that aren't relevant.
3 That is why I say, I'm going to talk to Mr. Keane
4 and I'm going to decide what it is has been ordered
5 to be done in this case, which I think is to turn
6 over unedited videotapes of witnesses in the case.
7 I think that is the last thing.
8 MR. MOXON: I'll give you each of the orders,
9 your Honor.
10 THE COURT: What I want to do at some point in
11 time is figure out witnesses, well, who are the
12 witnesses, and let him know that. And I don't know
13 how in the world he's going to know who these people
14 are.
15 MR. FUGATE: I was just going to say --
16 THE COURT: I wouldn't, and I have seen some of
17 them.
18 MR. FUGATE: -- there is no way he can get them
19 without you being involved. Should somebody go tell
20 him he needs to stop by here first?
21 MR. MOXON: I already talked to him about it.
22 THE COURT: The nice thing about it is I talked
23 to him, so when I have time to get with Mr. Keane, I
24 shall do so. That man has got a jury out. And I'm
25 tired. And I'm not going to ask him, when he's
1142
1 waiting for a jury that he's been involved in for
2 two weeks, to come up and deal with this, so -- he's
3 not going to deal with it, most likely, today. I'm
4 not going to deal with it today. And we'll get this
5 done next week.
6 MR. MOXON: Very good.
7 THE COURT: But I do want the order so I can
8 see what -- what needs to be done.
9 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, as a point of
10 information, I won't belabor the point, but I have
11 just spoken with Mr. Bunker. I'll be entering an
12 appearance for him. He advises me that there are
13 like 26 more tapes in his possession that would fall
14 under the order. They are being Fed Ex'd to me.
15 I'll turn them over to your honor or Mr. Keane on
16 Tuesday.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. McGOWAN: So I hope that --
19 THE COURT: But, obviously, it has been brought
20 to my attention there are tapes in there that are
21 personal tapes. Mr. Moxon does not need to see
22 personal tapes. Neither does Mr. Dandar.
23 MR. MOXON: No. I don't want to. Absolutely.
24 THE COURT: But you can't go view them and then
25 say, "Well, gee, I don't need that." Personal tapes
1143
1 are personal tapes. And that is my problem. And
2 I'm not sure how it is we're going to -- I mean,
3 that was an objection made in my court and I need to
4 honor that, but I'm just not sure how that is going
5 to happen.
6 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, Mr. Bunker is
7 actually willing to come down and assist Mr. Keane.
8 He knows what --
9 THE COURT: That would be perfect. He knows he
10 has the right to come in and make his argument
11 before me about all of the tapes, all that stuff
12 that was said yesterday, journalistic privilege and
13 all that sort of stuff, if he wants to.
14 But if he doesn't do it pretty quick, I'm going
15 to assume he doesn't want to do that, and that all
16 he wants to make sure of is his personal tapes are
17 not viewed by anybody, other than the master is
18 going to have to view them. And --
19 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
20 THE COURT: -- and that whatever is turned over
21 to either side will be copies, and whatever it is,
22 he can have them back.
23 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I have disabused him
24 of certain notions. And he understands how in
25 camera viewing these kinds of things works now. And
1144
1 I think he'll be cooperative.
2 And I think he can actually identify certain
3 tapes which are, in whole, irrelevant or family
4 tapes or whatever.
5 THE COURT: I'm sure that is true. Then once
6 we identify that there are certain relevant tapes,
7 as far as I'm concerned at that time, Mr. Moxon and
8 Mr. Dandar or somebody from your office can be
9 present and you-all can identify what you want and
10 somebody can -- I don't know whether Mr. Keane has
11 the ability to do this or not, but I guess he has
12 the ability to appoint somebody who does have the
13 ability, like he did with the computers.
14 MR. MOXON: Yes, well, we may have to sit down
15 with him and maybe with Mr. Bunker there, too, and
16 try to figure out which are which. It's kind of
17 hard to tell, I guess, unless you actually look at
18 them. But, of course, I have a list of all of the
19 people that have been witnesses or people that are
20 listed as witnesses.
21 THE COURT: Well, people that have been listed
22 as witnesses but who are not now witnesses, why
23 would you be entitled to them?
24 MR. MOXON: Well, only because, from time to
25 time, some of the witnesses have been utilized for
1145
1 matters that have been argued here now. Mr. Dandar
2 has put pretty much everybody back on his witness
3 list, and then some, who was on the original. We
4 have gotten a list from him that is quite long. So
5 I don't know if there is anybody in the category of
6 "used to be but no longer is."
7 THE COURT: Well, if they are on the witness
8 list -- but if there is somebody that is not on any
9 witness list and they used to be and they are long
10 since removed, not to be used for anything and not
11 planned to be used for anything, I don't see where
12 they would still be part of the order.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I guess it depends if they were
14 sitting there talking about the case at the LMT or
15 in end of cycle or something that is an issue in the
16 case, I -- like that clip you saw would be very
17 relevant.
18 THE COURT: I think so, too. But those are
19 people who clearly --
20 MR. WEINBERG: On that tape, those particular,
21 certainly were.
22 MR. McGOWAN: Perhaps if we have a list of
23 witnesses and issues, we could then, with
24 Mr. Bunker's help, go through the tapes, make a
25 privilege log and say, here is such and such a
1146
1 witness, do it that way.
2 THE COURT: That will work. Okay. We'll get
3 it done. But as I said, I have been a trial lawyer
4 many years before I was a judge, but when you have a
5 jury out on a big case, and you tried it probably on
6 a contingency fee, you don't want to sit down with
7 some judge and have her talk about a bunch of tapes
8 that somebody asked you to go through. So I'm not
9 going to bother him, except I told him, when he's
10 done, have him see me. And that will probably be
11 next week.
12 MR. MOXON: Okay.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Very good.
14 THE COURT: Continue, Mr. Dandar.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Quickly, Mr. Minton, did you have a chance to look
17 at the first amended complaint?
18 A I did.
19 Q Is the word "murder" used in reference to the
20 killing of Lisa McPherson?
21 A Mmm --
22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, that is not what the
23 original question was, I don't think, was -- was the
24 word "murder" in there.
25 THE COURT: No, I think it was as it relates to
1147
1 this case. He was asking what changed from the
2 first to the second. That is how I gathered the
3 question.
4 A Well, the word "murder" is used in Paragraph 38
5 concerning the introspection rundown.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Read it, please.
8 A "The introspection --" Paragraph 38: "The
9 introspection rundown, even according to L. Ron Hubbard,
10 must be followed strictly and by Scientology-trained
11 personnel as defined by Scientology. Otherwise, it can be
12 extremely dangerous, and to those who wish to abuse the
13 introspection rundown, according to L. Ron Hubbard, can be
14 used to murder that person or cause a person to go
15 completely and utterly insane or to commit suicide."
16 Q Does it allege that -- in the case of Lisa
17 McPherson, the word "murder," is that used?
18 A I think that the term "murder" here is one of
19 these allegations by innuendo.
20 Q Oh, okay. So the first amended complaint, after
21 you gave me the first check of $100,000, does not say
22 Scientology murdered Lisa McPherson?
23 A It doesn't.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Judge --
25 A But that is your copy.
1148
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Sorry.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I suppose that is
4 subject to some -- in light of the allegation of
5 intentional killing and language that it relates the
6 introspection rundown to murder, and the allegation
7 that Lisa McPherson, in that amended complaint, was
8 on the introspection rundown. So I think, as
9 lawyers, we would argue that in light of the
10 characterization of murder and introspection
11 rundown, Paragraph 38, but that is not for
12 Mr. Minton to --
13 THE COURT: No, it's not. And that was not
14 exactly as I understand what Mr. Minton said had
15 happened after he gave the money, so --
16 MR. DANDAR: I'm just interested in the
17 church --
18 THE COURT: However, in fact, the word "murder"
19 was used in some of the later complaints, I believe.
20 MR. DANDAR: No.
21 THE COURT: Well, I thought I saw it.
22 MR. DANDAR: What he just read from is actually
23 words of Mr. Hubbard in his own publications.
24 THE COURT: Right.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is --
1149
1 MR. MOXON: That is not true.
2 MR. LIEBERMAN: He just makes it up, your
3 Honor. I ask Mr. Dandar to produce a document by
4 Mr. Hubbard saying the introspection rundown can be
5 used to murder somebody.
6 THE COURT: That is what it said in that
7 complaint.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: But he just said it is in the
9 writings of Mr. Hubbard. He makes it up. It's the
10 same kind of thing we have in the fifth amended
11 complaint, your Honor. It is just made up. He just
12 says it. And it's not true.
13 THE COURT: Well, all I know is what I heard he
14 read. And that sounded like something he was
15 reading -- putting in his complaint that came from a
16 writing of L. Ron Hubbard. I don't know.
17 MR. MOXON: It is not, your Honor, absolutely
18 not.
19 THE COURT: Well, there is a lot of stuff said