KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 8
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG ROBERT MINTON
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: May 24, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 932
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton
MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
Attorney for Stacy Brooks
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 933
ALSO PRESENT:
Ms. Donna West
Mr. Rick Spector
Ms. Sarah Heller
Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
Ms. Joyce Earl
Ms. Patricia Greenway
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 934
1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Did we want to take up this
3 request to produce this morning?
4 MR. HOWIE: Yes.
5 THE COURT: I don't know where it is.
6 MR. HOWIE: You're referring to Mr. Dandar's
7 request to produce records of Robert Minton?
8 THE COURT: No. I'm talking about the
9 Church's motion to produce, request to produce,
10 something from the Estate.
11 MR. DANDAR: Bank checks and --
12 THE COURT: Right. Whatever I got
13 yesterday, and I said -- well, lots of times I say
14 we'll take these things up, but then we never do. So
15 they're just kind of floating around out there.
16 MR. HOWIE: Well, your Honor -- your Honor,
17 as long as I'm on my feet, I would like to address
18 Mr. Dandar's request to produce for Mr. Minton.
19 THE COURT: All right. I don't have it, so
20 I don't know what it is.
21 MR. HOWIE: Well, I'm about to provide that
22 to you. If you recall, three days ago -- and I'm
23 providing right now the Court with the original of a
24 letter from Jean Pierre, Jacque Moude, J-a-c-q-u-e
25 M-o-u-d-e of Geneva, Switzerland, dated -- or,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 935
1 executed in Geneva May 22nd, 2002, and purportedly
2 signed by him in reference to three checks issued by
3 the UBS.
4 Now, I realize this was not an entirely
5 adequate response for the purposes of request to
6 produce, but the Court has directed us within 48
7 hours, which ran as of about 5 o'clock yesterday, to
8 advise the Court on what efforts and diligence
9 Mr. Minton has made in order to secure these
10 documents. This is what we were able to do -- I
11 should say what Mr. Minton was able to do in that
12 short period of time.
13 Of course, Mr. Minton will -- will accept
14 inquiry into his efforts on this point. But the point
15 is that on Monday -- which is not a holiday in Europe,
16 obviously -- Mr. Minton will make efforts to actually
17 secure from the bank itself the documentation that
18 shows that the source of these funds in these three
19 checks were his.
20 To identify the three checks in order,
21 the 992 check, the first one numbered there, is the
22 half million dollar check, which is in evidence, the
23 check to Ken Dandar in the amount of half million
24 dollars; the second check, the 242 check, is the check
25 for a quarter million dollars, again to Mr. Dandar;
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 936
1 the third check, 493, is, if I understand correctly, a
2 UBS check in the amount of $300,000, approximately, to
3 I believe the Lisa McPherson Trust, if I'm not
4 mistaken, although I may stand corrected on that
5 point.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Was there not another
7 $500,000 check?
8 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, there is, and
9 Mr. Minton is able to respond to that.
10 MR. MINTON: Can I tell him something?
11 THE COURT: Sure.
12 (Mr. Minton spoke to Mr. Howie off the
13 record.)
14 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, the $500,000 check
15 that you're referring to was in fact not a check but a
16 wire transfer, and so we need to obtain documentation
17 concerning the wire transfer.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Is that adequate?
19 MR. DANDAR: No.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. DANDAR: This is a letter from the
22 lawyer. I don't know who the lawyer represents. It's
23 not a letter to the bank. It doesn't identify the
24 name of the bank. It doesn't identify the account
25 numbers out of which these checks held the funds that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 937
1 were transferred ultimately to UBS, which I still
2 believe, based upon what I know, is the crux of why
3 we're going through this hearing.
4 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I realize this does
5 not complete the --
6 THE COURT: What you're suggesting is that
7 this is the best you could do in 48 hours.
8 MR. HOWIE: Yes.
9 THE COURT: All right. For now, I think
10 that's a good-faith effort, and I will accept that.
11 MR. HOWIE: And Mr. Minton is continuing
12 those efforts. And we understand that Mr. Dandar's
13 chief concern is establishing that the source of these
14 funds was in fact Mr. Minton, if we understand the
15 request correctly.
16 MR. DANDAR: We know that through testimony,
17 correct, but we need to establish where this money
18 came from, the identity of the account holder of those
19 funds. And I believe there are multiple accounts
20 involved which culminated in the UBS checks, which I
21 believe is what caused Mr. Minton to do what he's
22 doing since April 5th.
23 THE COURT: Well, why don't you make your
24 inquiry at the appropriate time of Mr. Minton, and
25 we'll see where that leads us. And then we'll see
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 938
1 what -- what else needs to be done.
2 MR. DANDAR: All right.
3 THE COURT: But I have been told at this
4 time this is a 48-hour effort. I think it's a
5 good-faith effort. It's something I didn't give much
6 time or we didn't give much time, and so we'll see
7 what comes in next.
8 But you understand what it is that he's
9 looking for?
10 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, one other point
13 while I have the Court's attention, and I will proceed
14 as the Court directs me to proceed. But at the
15 conclusion of Mr. Minton's testimony, either whether
16 recross or redirect at that point, I will ask
17 permission of the Court to voir dire Mr. Minton on
18 certain points pertaining specifically to recantation.
19 Obviously, my chief goal here is to make
20 sure that he makes a complete, clean breast of things,
21 that he recants as the statute requires him to recant,
22 following the procedure set out in the statute.
23 My alternative, of course, is to present and
24 file an affidavit. I can do either one, but I would
25 prefer to proceed by voir dire as long as he's under
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 939
1 oath on the stand and subject to inquiry by the Court.
2 THE COURT: Let's see where we are, how much
3 time we have. To be honest, we're just running at a
4 snail's pace.
5 MR. HOWIE: I can assure the Court I would
6 be very quick and to the point.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. FUGATE: May it please your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. FUGATE: I spoke with Wally Pope. This
11 is in line with some things that your Honor indicated
12 yesterday. And he has sent me a copy of this letter,
13 and he indicated that he called Ms. Bloemendaal and
14 asked permission to provide it to your Honor in light
15 of some of the things that have been said in this
16 case. And I told him that I would do that and get
17 permission to provide it to the Court.
18 I think it covers a series of the areas that
19 we had been talking about. And his position is he
20 wants the Court to be aware that this is going on and
21 that he has nothing to hide, I guess is his position.
22 THE COURT: Okay. I haven't read this. I
23 just got it handed to me, so I have no idea what it
24 is. So if you all will just give me a minute so I can
25 read it so I know what he's talking about.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 940
1 MR. DANDAR: Let me object first. This is
2 my response to Mr. Pope's Bar complaint against me,
3 representing the Church of Scientology. It's a
4 privileged matter as far as I understand. I don't
5 think Mr. Pope or the Florida Bar, for which you have
6 no letter from, can waive the confidentiality. So I
7 think this is improper for the counsel to present it
8 to you.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Why is it being
10 presented?
11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor --
12 THE COURT: That is my understanding too,
13 that if the Bar --
14 MR. FUGATE: Unless -- unless the matter has
15 otherwise been made public. And I think if you'll
16 read the letter, you'll see what I'm referring to and
17 why he wanted to make sure that you were provided a
18 copy.
19 THE COURT: Who wanted to be sure?
20 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Pope. And it's my
21 understanding that he contacted Susan Bloemendaal and
22 said, you know: "I would like to be able to provide
23 this to the Court. Is there a problem with that?"
24 And he was advised there isn't a problem with that.
25 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what. In an
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 941
1 abundance of caution -- Mr. Dandar says that it's
2 confidential; it's his letter. Mr. Pope through you
3 is saying he contacted the Bar, and they said it could
4 be provided to me. I suppose my best course of action
5 here is to call Ms. Bloemendaal myself.
6 MR. FUGATE: I have no objection to that,
7 Judge. And I think that's Mr. Pope's purpose and
8 desire. And as I say, I think the letter speaks for
9 itself.
10 THE COURT: Okay. And so do you have any
11 problem with that?
12 MR. DANDAR: No, Judge. If you contact the
13 Bar and the Bar says they can waive my privilege, then
14 that'll be fine.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. FUGATE: I think it's Mr. Pope's
17 privilege that's addressed in this letter, and he's
18 indicating that he waives it and has no objection to
19 your Honor having this letter and reading it. It's a
20 Bar complaint against Mr. Pope by Mr. Dandar.
21 THE COURT: Oh, well, then that's not
22 your -- I thought -- Mr. Dandar thought, I think, that
23 this had to do with some response of his to a Bar
24 complaint filed by the Church of Scientology. I
25 thought --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 942
1 MR. FUGATE: There was no Bar -- well,
2 that's not accurate, Judge. This deals with the
3 testimony that occurred in front of Judge Baird, which
4 under the Florida Bar rules, the lawyers that are
5 present there have a requirement to provide to the
6 Bar, under the rules -- and as a matter of fact, I was
7 present at that proceeding, and I asked Mr. Pope.
8 And he said: I've already checked with the
9 Bar and we have an obligation to do it and I've
10 written a letter and attached the transcript.
11 Because I would have done the same thing.
12 So if I -- if I'm in line for a complaint as well, so
13 be it. But the point of this is this letter is a Bar
14 complaint against Mr. Pope, and he wanted the Court to
15 be aware of it and have a copy of it.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. DANDAR: This is my response to
18 Mr. Pope's complaint against me. And that's what that
19 reference clause is and that's what the number is.
20 THE COURT: Yes, that's what it would seem
21 like.
22 MR. FUGATE: Look at the third paragraph.
23 THE COURT: Well, I see that too. But I
24 also see "Inquiry, Complaint of F. Wallace Pope" at
25 the top, with a number. And consequently, it may have
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 943
1 some dual purpose, in which case I'm going to just be
2 sure about this and contact the Bar.
3 MR. FUGATE: I have no problem with that,
4 Judge.
5 THE COURT: Unless Mr. Dandar wants to waive
6 the privilege, in which case I don't have a problem.
7 But if he does --
8 MR. DANDAR: I hate waiving anything. I
9 mean, I just don't know where it leads after I start
10 waiving things.
11 THE COURT: I understand.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I want to bring to your
13 attention what I believe is witness tampering by the
14 Church of Scientology.
15 THE COURT: Isn't it a wonderful day --
16 MR. DANDAR: Isn't it wonderful?
17 THE COURT: -- to start? It's just such a
18 wonderful day.
19 MR. DANDAR: I can't help it, but you
20 ordered Mr. Franks yesterday to appear. They refused
21 to produce the agreement or release they have with
22 Mr. Franks. You ordered him to appear based upon the
23 subpoena he was served. And here's Mr. Drescher from
24 the Church of Scientology threatening him that he
25 better not appear.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 944
1 MR. FUGATE: Are you going to produce a
2 copy --
3 MR. WEINBERG: This is a May 20th letter.
4 MR. DANDAR: Did I give you the wrong one?
5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know. You gave me a
6 May 20th letter.
7 THE COURT: What's today?
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: The 24th.
9 MR. MOXON: 24th, 5th? 4th.
10 THE COURT: I don't think I've seen this
11 letter. I think this is not in the packet of letters
12 that I got.
13 MR. DANDAR: Correct. This is a new one.
14 It's apparently misdated.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. You know,
17 come on. What do you mean, it's misdated? You just
18 handed me this thing and it has May 20th on it and
19 it's signed by Mr. Drescher.
20 THE COURT: It doesn't really matter to me.
21 I haven't seen it. And I'm --
22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, I didn't mean
23 to . . .
24 MR. DANDAR: It's a different letter from
25 the other one.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 945
1 THE COURT: Yes. I don't have this, and I
2 don't honestly know up here --
3 MR. WEINBERG: I think you put them in the
4 front.
5 THE COURT: I think I put them somewhere
6 thinking I wouldn't have to see them for quite a
7 while.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I think you had them right up
9 front.
10 THE COURT: Yes. Gee, you're right.
11 Thanks. I'd forgotten.
12 MR. DANDAR: Well, I can tell you, Judge,
13 the one I handed you is dated May 20th, 2002. The one
14 that was presented to you yesterday or the day before
15 is dated May 20th, 2000.
16 THE COURT: Yes. That's clearly -- that's
17 certainly an error.
18 MR. DANDAR: This was just faxed to us this
19 morning by Mr. Franks -- Drescher. Actually, I think
20 it was yesterday evening.
21 MR. MOXON: With a cover letter from
22 Mr. Franks, Mr. Dandar?
23 MR. DANDAR: I have the letter, but that's
24 in my possession.
25 MR. MOXON: Can I see the cover letter?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 946
1 MR. DANDAR: No. Go sit down.
2 THE COURT: All right, men. I'm not going
3 to put up with it.
4 Well, Mr. Dandar, all I can suggest is I
5 have a subpoena out there, I guess, and it's the
6 Court's -- the subpoena is really just a command of
7 the Court. And I can't imagine that there's any
8 agreement that says that somebody can be fined for
9 coming to court on a command of the Court, which is
10 what I consider a subpoena.
11 As far as I'm concerned, it's my demand. I
12 expect him to be here, and if there's some agreement
13 that says that a Court can't demand a witness to
14 appear in court, well, then we'll just have to see how
15 far that goes in the court.
16 And I would suggest that this does not make
17 the Court look good. I mean, he says he needs this
18 man for this hearing. You know, if there's something
19 going on with the breach of contract, go sue the man.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if I may, but, your
21 Honor, he hasn't said why. And -- and he's already --
22 he hasn't said why. He's already had an experience
23 with other people that have entered agreements. And
24 what he's doing is, through a subterfuge, is trying --
25 obviously, the Court can order anybody to appear, and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 947
1 there's no agreement anywhere in the world that would
2 prevent the Court from ordering somebody to appear,
3 unless -- no, nothing that would prevent the Court,
4 but Mr. Franks is prevented from entering into a
5 subterfuge to circumvent the agreement -- for example,
6 by coming to the International Mall in Tampa from out
7 of state, making himself available for a subpoena.
8 THE COURT: But that sounds like something
9 that goes on in a lawsuit that's filed --
10 MR. WEINBERG: No, no --
11 THE COURT: -- for a contract. Oh, I feel
12 certain that it will, but that's not my problem. This
13 is a witness. He's got him served. I haven't seen
14 the agreement yet.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we --
16 THE COURT: You have it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: We don't. But we were
18 provided -- apparently, there's going to be some --
19 THE COURT: If you needed it in your case,
20 you could have had the thing in five minutes. I don't
21 have it. You could have it; you don't have it. So
22 that's the deal. My subpoena stands. I expect the
23 man to be here, period. You got a lawsuit to file,
24 file it.
25 MR. WEINBERG: And we'll cross-examine him
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 948
1 on --
2 THE COURT: No, you won't in my court,
3 because that has to do with the lawsuit you've got.
4 He comes into my court to testify to something
5 relevant to these proceedings. And if he doesn't have
6 anything relevant to these proceedings, he'll be gone
7 as fast as he got here.
8 MR. WEINBERG: But --
9 THE COURT: If he has something relevant --
10 you aren't going to cross-examine as to his service.
11 That has to do with some lawsuit you've got.
12 MR. WEINBERG: As to his --
13 THE COURT: Go file it. Take discovery.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- previous agreements with
15 the Church, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. I'm
17 not interested in it. I'm not interested in previous
18 agreements with the Church as -- he has relevant
19 information in this case. He's been subpoenaed. He
20 needs to come in and give it.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, he was with the
22 Church, and the circumstances that he left the Church
23 would be, I would suppose, would be relevant to
24 whatever it is he's going to say about the Church.
25 THE COURT: I don't know. Whatever is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 949
1 relevant, certainly you can cross-examine him on. But
2 you're not going to cross-examine him on how it is
3 that he happened to be served and subterfuge and all
4 that sort of stuff. That certainly is not relevant to
5 these proceedings. How he left the Church, sure, that
6 might be relevant. I don't know what he's going to
7 say. I don't if he even knows anything relevant.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It would be surprising since
9 he left in 1982.
10 THE COURT: It would be, but all I know is
11 he says he needs him based on your motion to dismiss.
12 He's got him served. That's a summons from the Court.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the only thing I rose to
14 say is we already did this. You already said that was
15 your position. We already agreed with that position.
16 This letter is very much like the letter that I wrote
17 to Mr. Dandar, reminding him that there was an
18 agreement. As Judge Moody said, you can make a
19 decision: You can breach the agreement or you can go
20 forward.
21 THE COURT: You people never like it when
22 anybody says anything that you think is critical.
23 Frankly, I don't like this. Luckily, it isn't one of
24 you. It's some other lawyer who is not in front of
25 me. If it were, I would be chastising him.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 950
1 I look at this as witness intimidation. If
2 I thought for a minute that you all were in any way
3 involved in it, I would consider a motion to dismiss
4 your counterclaim.
5 I'm not going to have it. I don't know who
6 William Drescher is. He's not a lawyer in front of
7 me. I don't like it. This is a clear effort to keep
8 a man from coming to this Court. I don't like it, and
9 I hope you all had nothing to do with it. If you did,
10 you'll answer accordingly. That's all I'm going to
11 say. I want to move on in this hearing.
12 Mr. Minton.
13 (Mr. Minton took the stand.)
14 THE COURT: I mean, it's just really quite
15 amazing. If this man doesn't have any relevant
16 information, why doesn't he come in here and get on
17 and off the stand in five minutes? Sounds to me like
18 he's got something that must be critical the way all
19 these letters are flying back and forth.
20 Proceed, Mr. Dandar.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF ROBERT MINTON (RESUMED)
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Mr. Minton, have you talked to anyone about your
24 testimony yesterday?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 951
1 Q Have you talked to anyone about what you may be
2 asked today?
3 A No.
4 Q Okay.
5 THE COURT: Oh, let me --
6 Q This --
7 THE COURT: -- let me -- excuse me just a
8 second. I need to put this somewhere before I start
9 to read it. I'm going to put this over here. At the
10 first break I'll see if I can get in touch with
11 Ms. Bloemendaal.
12 MR. DANDAR: All right.
13 THE COURT: All right. I'm sorry, go ahead.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Minton, we started off yesterday about --
16 talking about this social worker, Diane Palermo
17 (unconfirmed spelling).
18 A Right.
19 Q And isn't it true, sir, that when she was asked
20 to write a note to Judge Baird to try to get you out of the
21 August 3rd, 2001, deposition and she refused to do that,
22 you went on the Internet and condemned her for not
23 cooperating with you? Is that right?
24 A That is not true.
25 Q Do you remember going on the Internet and talking
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 952
1 about Diane Palermo after she refused to write this note to
2 Judge Baird?
3 A No, I don't.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I remembered the post on the Internet that we
6 talked about yesterday, which was prior to any talking to
7 her.
8 MR. DANDAR: Here I go trying to ask you a
9 question, and I can't find what I'm looking for. I'm
10 sorry.
11 Okay.
12 Plaintiff's?
13 THE CLERK: 47.
14 MR. DANDAR: 47.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Mr. Minton, let me show you Plaintiff's
17 Exhibit 47. Is that an e-mail post, an
18 alt.religion.scientology post?
19 A Well, I'm going to read it, if you don't mind.
20 Q No, no. Sure, go ahead.
21 A This is -- it's not clear to me what this is,
22 Mr. Dandar.
23 THE COURT: Me either.
24 A It's got part testimony at the top; somebody
25 else's name at the bottom.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 953
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q All right. Let me ask you, to see what we're
3 talking about, at the top -- well, where it says "from," it
4 says "from Bobminton@lisatrust.net." Isn't that one of
5 your e-mail addresses?
6 THE COURT: Actually, at the top, I think
7 what Mr. Minton is referring to, it looks like some
8 deposition, because it's got line 11, 12. See, look
9 at line 18. Answer: "Yes."
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm sorry. You're right.
11 A That's Stacy Brooks' testimony in --
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- this case, I believe.
15 Q All right. Let's go below that. What I'm
16 talking about is the e-mail, or the post, to
17 alt.religion.scientology.
18 A I see that.
19 Q All right. Is that your posting?
20 A It wouldn't appear to be.
21 Q Why is that?
22 A Since it's got Mike Gormez's name down at the
23 bottom of it. It may be quoting a post of mine from
24 August 1st.
25 Q Oh, okay. So there's another post dated
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 954
1 August 1st that Mr. Gormez is responding to?
2 A Well, obviously, there is a part of this post
3 that's cut off, the part above, where Diane contacted me,
4 those little three dots. This doesn't appear to be a
5 complete message.
6 Q Okay. All right. Then put that aside. If
7 that's not complete, I'll find it later.
8 THE COURT: I don't really understand these
9 things. This is you, Mr. Minton,
10 Bobminton@lisatrust.net?
11 THE WITNESS: Right.
12 THE COURT: And then "Subject: Re: Bob
13 Minton," that doesn't sound like something you would
14 write as a subject.
15 THE WITNESS: That's right. This is -- this
16 is a follow-up message, your Honor, to a message that
17 I wrote.
18 THE COURT: You wrote a message and then --
19 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor --
20 THE COURT: The subject of this is "Bob
21 Minton, your outing of Diane is the last straw for
22 me." So this is not from you, right?
23 THE WITNESS: That's right. This is a
24 message that somebody wrote after I posted information
25 about Diane Palermo, before I ever talked to Diane
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 955
1 Palermo in any context around this event you've been
2 talking about, Mr. Dandar.
3 And that's why I say that this is not a
4 message -- this is not a complete message. There's
5 stuff that has been eliminated from --
6 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: -- the message.
8 THE COURT: This is not admissible --
9 MR. DANDAR: No.
10 THE COURT: -- in its present form.
11 So, Madam Clerk, this is not in.
12 MR. DANDAR: Right.
13 THE COURT: This is just not in.
14 MR. DANDAR: And that's Plaintiff's
15 Exhibit 47.
16 THE COURT: 47.
17 MR. DANDAR: And it's my inability to
18 understand how to do this as well.
19 Let me hand the witness, though, Plaintiff's
20 Exhibit 48 and see if this maybe caused the 47 to be
21 written. I'm not sure either.
22 THE WITNESS: This is not a post of mine.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q No. Is that something that you -- Stacy Brooks
25 wrote, as far as you know?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 956
1 A She may have, but I think -- you know, I have no
2 reason to believe it's not. It doesn't, you know, appear
3 to be -- it would appear to be a post of Stacy Brooks.
4 But, you know, I think Stacy Brooks is better able to
5 determine that than I am.
6 Q Do you see any of your postings in this clip-it
7 from alt.religion.scientology?
8 A No.
9 Q Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: The postings -- the posts that
11 are in here, Stacy Brooks -- this is her message.
12 She's responding to what Monica Pignotti wrote. And
13 you'll see there, your Honor, it says on Wednesday,
14 1st August, you know, dates and all that --
15 THE COURT: Right.
16 THE WITNESS: -- Monica Pignotti wrote. And
17 then everything that's in -- has that little caret in
18 front of it is something Monica Pignotti wrote. And
19 then everything that's not in the carets --
20 THE COURT: Then where it starts, "Monica,
21 Diane," that's Ms. Brooks.
22 THE WITNESS: That's Ms. Brooks talking, and
23 this is her post.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I was looking on the next
25 page.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 957
1 THE WITNESS: And again, that continues to
2 be --
3 THE COURT: That would be Ms. Brooks.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, Monica Pignotti and
5 Ms. Brooks, yes.
6 THE COURT: Is Ms. Pignotti back in there
7 some too?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, on the second page.
9 THE COURT: Carets again?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, the first paragraph and
11 the next-to-the-last paragraph.
12 THE COURT: Okay. So this is a discussion
13 between this Ms. Pignotti and Ms. Brooks.
14 THE WITNESS: It would appear to be.
15 THE COURT: This man can't authenticate
16 that.
17 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Now, if there's something in
19 there you want him to read and comment on --
20 MR. DANDAR: I'm just going to ask him a few
21 questions.
22 MR. WEINBERG: The document is not in
23 evidence?
24 THE COURT: The document is not in evidence,
25 neither 47 or 48.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 958
1 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
2 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks is still here. If 48
3 is important, presumably she can authenticate it, but
4 he can't.
5 MR. DANDAR: Right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Mr. Minton, do you recall outing Diane Palermo --
8 A No.
9 Q -- on alt.religion.scientology?
10 A No.
11 Q When Ms. Brooks writes about -- or someone writes
12 about the outing of Diane Palermo by you, do you have any
13 idea what they're referring to?
14 A I do.
15 Q All right. What is that?
16 A Revealing the identity of a person who is
17 supposedly anonymous.
18 Q And did you post Diane Palermo's name and other
19 identification information on alt.religion.scientology?
20 A After Diane Palermo had posted her own name.
21 Q So why were you being accused of outing her?
22 A Because they're a group of people who like to
23 accuse me of doing practically everything.
24 Q Do you deny --
25 A They were -- they were focused on the fact that I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 959
1 indicated that she had -- that when she told her story that
2 she didn't tell it all because of her relationship with
3 someone in the Church of Scientology in New York.
4 Q Mr. Carmichael.
5 A Right.
6 Q All right.
7 A That was what people said was an outing. But an
8 outing is outing someone's name that has not previously
9 been revealed.
10 Q Okay. And you were not the one who first did
11 that to Diane Palermo?
12 A Diane Palermo posted her own name.
13 Q Did she post it in a fashion that connected her
14 with you?
15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object
16 to the relevance. If I understood what Mr. Minton
17 said, he said this was all before he was supposed to
18 be testifying.
19 THE COURT: Yes. I'm having a real hard
20 time figuring the relevance.
21 THE WITNESS: I mean, I -- if you could tell
22 me the date that --
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q August 3rd, 2001, was the date of your
25 deposition.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 960
1 A Well, all these things are before -- are
2 August 1st or earlier.
3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. So I'll move on to
4 something else.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Now, Mr. Rinder, after you --
8 THE COURT: Mr. Rinder?
9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton.
10 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Minton. I just saw
11 "Rinder" on my notes, sorry.
12 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
13 MR. DANDAR: It was a long night last night.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Minton, after you started to loan money for
16 the Lisa McPherson case, did you have meetings with
17 Mr. Rinder of the Church of Scientology?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Why did you meet with Mr. Rinder while the
20 wrongful death case was proceeding that you were funding or
21 providing loans to?
22 A Well, in -- well, at the time -- just let me give
23 you an idea, is at the time, you know, I perceived my
24 funding of this case and other cases as some leverage to
25 use with Scientology. And what Ms. Brooks and I -- well, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 961
1 had three meetings with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun.
2 MR. FUGATE: Can we have the dates of those,
3 your Honor?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were in -- I think
5 the first one was in May of '98. There was a
6 subsequent -- early May. There was a subsequent one
7 in May of '98 right at the end of the month. And then
8 I think there was a June or July one. The first one
9 was in Los Angeles, the second one in Boston, and the
10 third one was in Los Angeles again.
11 THE COURT: Again, are we talking June or
12 July of '98?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, '98, yes.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q July 1998 was 5 1/2 hours?
16 A I don't remember. But I think I posted about it,
17 and you could probably refresh my memory.
18 Q I'll try. But go ahead and tell us why you met
19 with him.
20 A The purpose of Ms. Brooks and I meeting with him
21 the first time was to see if we could persuade the senior
22 management of the Church to, number one, open up a
23 communication line to people who were willing to actually
24 talk with them, rather than, you know, go out off on the
25 Internet and just criticize them all the time, just to see
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 962
1 if we could open up a dialogue between the, quote, critic
2 community.
3 But from their standpoint, you know, they wanted
4 to make sure this was the, quote, "reasonable" critic
5 community and secondly to see if they could -- if they were
6 willing to institute some reforms that we thought might be
7 a good thing.
8 Q The reforms that you thought might be a good
9 thing had nothing to do with their beliefs, did it?
10 A I believe they thought they did.
11 Q In your mind, it had to do with their abusive
12 tactics against their critics?
13 A We were focused on internal matters, as opposed
14 to external matters.
15 Q Okay. What internal matters were you focused on?
16 A Well, for example, the Rehabilitation Project
17 Force, and we had extensive discussions with Mr. Rathbun,
18 who had been recently in charge of -- as I remember, what
19 he told me, in charge of a major revamping of the
20 Rehabilitation Project Force. And, you know, some of that
21 allayed the -- some of our concerns about that; not all.
22 That, for example, was one I remember which was
23 high on the list of items discussed.
24 Q And you weren't concerned at all with the way
25 Scientology approaches or treats the ex-Scientologists or
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 963
1 critics of Scientology?
2 A Well, we thought that opening a dialogue would be
3 a useful way to begin to understand the problems on both
4 sides, including problems that related to, you know, how
5 people perceived they were treated by Scientology, how
6 Scientology perceived they were treated by critics, both
7 former Scientologists and not former Scientologists.
8 Q So -- so when you actually met with Mr. Rinder,
9 you had noble and good intentions?
10 A Well, this is something that, you know -- Stacy
11 felt that this is something they might be willing to listen
12 to.
13 Q Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 49. Is this
14 a post by you to alt.religion.scientology on July 14th,
15 1998?
16 A Yes, that is a post that I made.
17 Q So after 5 1/2 hours, the only good thing you can
18 say about it were they recommended a good sushi restaurant
19 and Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun are superbly qualified
20 representatives of Scientology, RTC, and OSA?
21 A Right. That's what I said.
22 Q Do you feel you accomplished anything in the
23 5 1/2 hour meeting in July of '98?
24 A Nothing that we set out to accomplish, no.
25 Q Were there any threats made by them to you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 964
1 concerning your loans or other type of funding to
2 litigation involving the Church of Scientology?
3 A No. There was -- there was a suggestion in the
4 second and third meetings that a sort of global settlement
5 agreement could be reached. In one of those meetings, they
6 presented a document to me that was a settlement agreement.
7 Q Did that concern -- what case?
8 A It concerned all the cases and individuals that I
9 was involved with at the time.
10 Q Did it include the Lisa McPherson death case?
11 A It did.
12 Q Did you represent to Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rathbun
13 that you had been appointed by the Estate to represent it
14 in settlement negotiations?
15 A Mr. Dandar, perhaps you're having trouble with
16 the English language here.
17 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike.
18 A It was not settling --
19 THE COURT: Please don't do that. Just
20 answer.
21 A Okay. This was not a settlement agreement about
22 settling the case. Okay? So the answer to your question
23 is no.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q What was it about? Settling what?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 965
1 A Settling my outstanding issues with the Church of
2 Scientology.
3 Q And part of that settlement, quote, unquote,
4 settlement discussions, were to have you stop providing
5 money to these litigants, correct?
6 A Litigants and others.
7 Q Including the Lisa McPherson case?
8 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q I guess I just don't understand. What issues did
12 you have with the Church that you needed to settle? I
13 mean, usually a settlement agreement, there's something --
14 a give and take on both sides, and there's something that
15 one's getting in exchange for giving and this type of
16 thing. They wanted you to stop funding lawsuits, including
17 this case. And in exchange, what were they going to do for
18 you?
19 A You know, I don't really remember because I
20 didn't see much, you know, in it for me, you know, in terms
21 of --
22 Q Well, you went there to talk to them about a
23 global settlement agreement. What were you trying to get
24 from them?
25 A No, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 966
1 Q Oh.
2 A I didn't say we went there to talk to them about
3 a global settlement agreement. They brought that up during
4 the course of either the second -- it was the third
5 meeting, because it was in Los Angeles. And it wasn't at
6 the meeting that Stacy Brooks was in in Los Angeles, so it
7 had to be the second meeting in Los Angeles. You know,
8 they brought it up, not me.
9 Q Well, what were they trying -- what were they
10 going to give you? If you did this, what was in it for
11 you, Mr. Minton?
12 A Well, as I said, I didn't see much in it at all.
13 I mean, you know, it was, you know, just basically, you
14 know, "leave us alone and we'll leave you alone" type
15 thing.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And what were they doing or saying they were
19 planning on doing to you, Mr. Minton, or your family if you
20 didn't leave them alone?
21 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object. That
22 assumes facts not in evidence. It's argumentative.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 A They made no threats whatsoever.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 967
1 Q None. Did you ever post about any threats
2 shortly thereafter?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q Your best recollection today is the summer of
5 '98, during these series of meetings, no threats were made
6 to you?
7 A I don't believe so.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q I believe in your deposition you indicated you
11 spent 15 1/2 hours meeting with them. Is that about right?
12 A The combination of those three meetings, yes.
13 Q Okay. So for 15 1/2 hours, you talked about
14 nothing? I mean, there was nothing -- no issues? They
15 didn't offer you anything, you didn't have anything to
16 offer them, so you all just sat and looked at each other
17 for 15 1/2 hours?
18 A Well, there was a lot of information provided to
19 me, which, quite honestly, your Honor, had I listened to at
20 the time I wouldn't be in the problem I'm in today.
21 Q Well, tell us about that, then.
22 A Well, it was largely information about some of
23 the people that I was involved in funding. There was
24 information about some of the lawyers that I was working
25 with.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 968
1 And, you know, I -- you know, at that time, just
2 like everybody else who was involved in this thing, you
3 know, you're just automatically geared to not believe what
4 they're telling you, that, you know, just like, you know,
5 from their perspective, you know, they see that a lot of
6 these disaffected Scientologists are -- you know, through
7 their affidavits and other things, have, you know,
8 tremendously exaggerated their experiences and problems
9 with the Church. You know, I think we've already seen here
10 that that's to some extent true.
11 Q I think I mentioned in court that it seems to be,
12 from what I read on these postings, that if the cult --
13 that if the anti-cult people think that Scientology is
14 rabid or whatever they must think of them --
15 A Right.
16 Q -- certainly they sound rabid to an outsider like
17 me reading whatever it is they're saying. So it sounds
18 like, whatever it is they're criticizing, they need to just
19 kind of look inward.
20 A You mean the critics or --
21 Q The critics.
22 A Well, I would say almost without a doubt that the
23 critics are far more rabid than the Church is. I mean, the
24 Church doesn't get on the Internet with the kind of stuff
25 that the critics get on there.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 969
1 Q Well, as I said, I don't know what the Church
2 does because I've not seen too many of their postings, if
3 any. Most of the postings I see are the critics'
4 postings --
5 A Right.
6 Q -- and then occasionally I see something that
7 looks like it might be somebody trying to defend the Church
8 in some ugly fashion.
9 A Right.
10 Q But what I see from the critics oftentimes is
11 fairly rabid and fairly distasteful.
12 A It is, your Honor. And, you know, I'm certainly
13 guilty of that as well. I've done that.
14 Q Yes, indeed you are. I've read some pretty ugly
15 e-mails or whatever you call them, postings.
16 A Usenet postings, they're called.
17 Q Right. I'm still having a hard time. So they're
18 telling you that this is -- you really ought not fund these
19 people. You're putting out a lot of your money. You told
20 us about $10 million. So you put out a lot of money.
21 You're funding this, you're lending money to this lawyer,
22 funding this lawsuit, the Lisa McPherson. They wanted you
23 to stop that, right?
24 A Well --
25 Q That's what you said in your deposition.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 970
1 A Yes.
2 Q If you don't remember it, I'll read it.
3 A Yes, your Honor, that's basically it. But the
4 way they were doing that is, you know, they were -- they
5 were trying to provide information that basically I had a
6 built-in mechanism not to look at or believe, you know.
7 And they provided lots of information.
8 I remember the second meeting in Boston, you
9 know, they didn't come in with a bunch of boxes like are on
10 the bench back there, but maybe a couple of boxes like that
11 of information that they thought that if I would listen to
12 I might learn something.
13 And, you know, I mean, you know, they told me
14 that, you know, if you continue, you know, working with
15 these people, you know, you're just going to have an
16 incredible amount of money sunk down the hole for nothing,
17 because these people are, some of them, were just con men
18 or con women.
19 And, you know, had I listened honestly, you know,
20 they told the truth about a lot of individuals that I've
21 been involved with.
22 Q Okay. Well, let's get past that for a minute.
23 They had this conversation with you, pointed out the error
24 of your ways, and had a boxful of information about these
25 folks, these rabid folks you were dealing with that you had
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 971
1 listened to. And when all was said and done, they had a
2 piece of paper there. And they said, "You stop funding
3 these people, and in exchange we will do" -- what?
4 A You know, I didn't walk away with a copy of this
5 thing. I just saw it, and I said, you know, "Look, I don't
6 see any realistic thing here."
7 Q Okay. Well, if they said they were going to
8 leave you alone, what were they going to leave you alone
9 about? What were they doing that they were going to stop
10 doing?
11 A Well, what they were --
12 Q Or do you just not remember? 15 1/2 hours and
13 you don't remember.
14 A What they were encouraging me to do, your Honor,
15 is they were saying to me basically that, you know -- and
16 had I listened, this would have been true -- "You are going
17 to waste your life for whatever period of time you continue
18 doing this."
19 Q Well, you don't need an agreement for that. You
20 don't need something in writing for that, do you?
21 A Well, I --
22 Q You just stop. You know: "You're wasting your
23 life. Stop. Here's some information you want to read. Go
24 home, read it, and stop your funding. See you."
25 There was a document there. Did you read it at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 972
1 all? Did you discuss it at all?
2 A Well, you know, what I found objectionable about
3 the document -- no, we didn't discuss it. I just said, you
4 know, there's no way, because the key thing about the
5 document was that, you know, I was basically going to give
6 up my free speech rights about any Scientology issues in
7 the future. And, you know, I just wasn't prepared to do
8 that at that time.
9 Q Okay. But you can't remember what the "this for
10 that" was.
11 A You know -- you know, there wasn't any sort of
12 tit for tat in this thing. This was a pretty one-sided
13 agreement.
14 Q Okay. That's fine.
15 A "You stop doing this and, you know, life will go
16 on for both of us and we don't have to worry about each
17 other. This will be the best thing for you anyway."
18 You know, it was a really completely one-sided
19 agreement. And --
20 Q So you just said no.
21 A That's right.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 50. So after
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 973
1 this 5 1/2-hour meeting in July of '98, your wife received
2 a letter from Michael Rinder on August 19th of 1998, as in
3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 50. Is that correct?
4 A I posted that.
5 Q Did you make this letter up, or is this an
6 accurate copy of what Mr. Rinder sent to your wife accusing
7 you of adultery?
8 A I believe that's an accurate representation of --
9 I think it was a scanned version of what was sent.
10 Q Did it cause you any problems at home?
11 A You know, it caused some upset that this was
12 delivered in England while my wife was on vacation.
13 Q Delivered to her parents' home in England,
14 correct?
15 A No, that's not correct. That's her home in
16 England.
17 Q Okay.
18 A Well, it doesn't have that address on there.
19 There were two addresses on it. I think both copies were
20 posted. This is the one that was mailed to the house in
21 Boston.
22 Q And what documentary evidence did he include in
23 this letter that he had of your illicit relationship, as he
24 calls it, and affair with Stacy Brooks that he sent to your
25 wife?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 974
1 A I think there were some pictures.
2 Q What did the pictures depict?
3 A I don't remember.
4 Q Mr. Minton.
5 A Hey, I just -- you know, that's a complete
6 answer. I don't remember.
7 Q Let me help refresh your memory.
8 A Please.
9 Q Did some of the pictures include you and Stacy
10 Brooks in a swimming pool?
11 A Probably not.
12 Q Okay. Did the pictures include you and Stacy
13 Brooks in a compromising position?
14 A Definitely not.
15 Q Were the pictures at all embarrassing to you?
16 A You know, the letter was embarrassing, you know.
17 I don't remember the pictures, I don't remember any
18 compromising pictures, I don't remember any pictures in a
19 swimming pool. The only pictures that they could have ever
20 taken in a swimming pool were taken from about 75 or
21 80 feet away through some trees, which you -- with a
22 small -- like a Brownie-type camera, which couldn't have
23 shown anybody. There couldn't have been any faces.
24 Q How about a telephoto lens?
25 A Well, I think you're aware of the incident and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 975
1 you're aware of what happened, and there wasn't any
2 telephoto lens.
3 Q Now --
4 A They trespassed on my property and took a
5 picture.
6 Q Was that one of those included?
7 A I don't know whether it was. In fact, I don't
8 think I've ever seen the picture.
9 Q Where are the pictures now?
10 A Where are they?
11 Q Yes, that Mr. Rinder --
12 A Since I've never seen them, I don't know.
13 Q All right.
14 THE COURT: Give me a minute to read this,
15 would you?
16 It says in the letter, Mr. Minton: "While
17 Bob denies that this direct relationship exists,
18 however, I have documentary evidence that on July 24th
19 and 25th, 1998, Bob and Stacy are at your home in New
20 Hampshire together. Their affair is alive and well,
21 and the manipulation and deceit continues."
22 Whatever it was, was that the documentation
23 that was included? Or do you not know?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I mean,
25 Mr. Dandar has said there are pictures included, but I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 976
1 don't know what documentation they included. You
2 know, as I recall, there was a -- a picture which
3 later was used to -- for some posters. And these were
4 purely silhouettes of Stacy Brooks and me. They
5 weren't -- you know, there was no -- you know, no skin
6 was shown. It was just pure silhouettes, you know,
7 and we weren't in any compromising position.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q No embrace, no nothing?
10 A No embrace, no nothing to my knowledge.
11 Q Do you know if Mr. Rinder -- if your wife called
12 Mr. Rinder at his request and stated the last line of the
13 letter?
14 A Well, I'm sure she didn't.
15 Q Okay.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q Is this part of what was discussed between you
19 and Mr. Rinder when you met with him, that if you stop
20 funding the litigation that he wouldn't reveal your
21 relationship with Stacy Brooks to your wife?
22 A That wasn't discussed, your Honor.
23 Q This just fortuitously came after the
24 negotiations broke down?
25 A I don't think "fortuitous" would be the right
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 977
1 word.
2 Q Not for you, that's for sure.
3 A Or not for my wife either.
4 Q Not for your wife. But I suppose if the Church
5 were trying to get your attention, I suppose it did, didn't
6 it. I should say if Mr. Rinder were trying to get your
7 attention, this would have gotten it, wouldn't it?
8 A Well, first of all, your Honor, yes, to answer
9 your question without beating around the bush here. But,
10 you know, this was something that my wife was aware of. I
11 was living in New Hampshire at this time, as opposed to the
12 Boston address which is there. And, yes, this was not a --
13 this was a problem.
14 Q I would think so.
15 A But it was a problem for my wife and I to work
16 out, which we have worked out.
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Mr. Rinder, to your knowledge --
20 THE COURT: Now, this is Mr. Minton.
21 MR. DANDAR: I did it again, sorry.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder is the boss or the senior
24 of Ben Shaw --
25 THE COURT: Are you moving this into
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 978
1 evidence?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Any objection?
4 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right. It'll be received.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q To your knowledge, is Mr. Rinder the boss or the
8 senior to Mr. Shaw, Ben Shaw?
9 A Well, as I -- as I understand it, Mr. Rinder is
10 the head of the Office of Special Affairs, and I believe
11 that Mr. Shaw is the head of the Office of Special Affairs
12 at Flag Service Organization here in Florida.
13 Q Okay.
14 A But, you know, that's just what I assume.
15 Q In Mr. Rinder's letter to your wife, he talks
16 about "the people that you are helping are morally bankrupt
17 and engaged in unethical and criminal activities." Who do
18 you know that you were helping back then that was engaged
19 in criminal activities?
20 A You know, I didn't write this letter. But if you
21 want to ask me who did I know --
22 Q Yes, you.
23 A -- that I thought might be engaged in criminal
24 activities --
25 Q Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 979
1 A -- that were among the people that I was involved
2 with?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Well, I didn't think anybody was at the time, but
5 some of the information that was given to me made me
6 question whether some might be.
7 Q Well, was Mr. Wollersheim involved?
8 THE COURT: Counselor, please, please.
9 Let's move on.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll move on.
11 You're right. Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Minton, did you ever post on the Internet
14 that you hated Scientology?
15 A Well, I would certainly have come pretty close if
16 I didn't outright say it. So I'm not sure, but, I mean,
17 practically everything nasty that you can say about
18 Scientology, you know, I've had a shot at.
19 THE COURT: Even in your depositions you had
20 quite a few opportunities to -- well, you said some
21 pretty hateful things about --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: -- about -- especially about
24 Mr. Miscavige.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 980
1 Q Let me show you a post dated December 10th of
2 '98, Plaintiff's Exhibit 51.
3 MR. DANDAR: I gave the Court the wrong
4 copy, sorry. I gave you the clerk's copy.
5 THE BAILIFF: You have a clerk's copy in
6 your hand.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Read the first paragraph, please.
9 MR. WEINBERG: To himself?
10 MR. DANDAR: Out loud.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Are you offering this then?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q First, is this your post?
15 A I'm trying to find out.
16 Q All right.
17 A Yes, it would appear to be.
18 Q And it's encrypted, correct?
19 A No.
20 Q At one time?
21 A No.
22 Q Okay. Why does it start with "PGP signed"
23 nothing?
24 A It's "PGP signed."
25 Q Okay. That's to authenticate it came from you?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 981
1 A Yes. And if we had our -- if we had this on
2 computer form and we checked it, you know, we could tell
3 whether it came from me for sure.
4 Q Just real quick, let's talk about PGP. PGP is
5 encryption software that you put on your computer so if
6 anyone would happen to have your computer unauthorized or
7 intercept your e-mail, they wouldn't be able to decipher
8 what was being written, correct?
9 A That's one of the uses of it, yes. It's
10 principally -- its principal use is for -- it's the
11 equivalent of -- I mean, a message you send by normal
12 e-mail is the equivalent of writing a postcard via U.S.
13 mail. Using encryption, it's the equivalent of putting it
14 in an envelope, sealing it, and putting a stamp on it and
15 mailing it.
16 Q And you were the one that introduced me to this
17 software, correct?
18 A I did.
19 Q And you installed it on my computers, correct?
20 A I installed a lot of things on your computers.
21 Q And why did you install encryption software on my
22 computer?
23 A To secure your communications.
24 Q With whom?
25 A With whoever.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 982
1 Q Including you?
2 A Including me.
3 Q Including anyone else that had the same type of
4 software, right?
5 A Dan Leipold, Ford Greene, whoever.
6 Q Okay.
7 A You know, I mean, this is the common way that
8 critics of the Church of Scientology would communicate, is
9 to be secure in their communications, just putting it in an
10 envelope as opposed to sending a postcard.
11 Q So in this posting of December 10th, 1998, that
12 you made to alt.religion.scientology, you state that highly
13 trained class auditors, quote, "deliberately and
14 intentionally killed Lisa McPherson without any regard
15 whatsoever to her as a human being," close quote. And
16 where did you get that information from?
17 A Well, I think that's information that we had
18 discussed with Jesse, with you --
19 THE COURT: Who is "we"?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm sure Stacy was
21 involved in these conversations as well.
22 A You know, this was what -- this was the line, so
23 to speak, in terms of what had happened in this case.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Has your opinion changed?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 983
1 A It has.
2 Q What is your opinion today?
3 A My opinion today is that, just like you are aware
4 of, that Lisa McPherson died from a pulmonary embolism.
5 There's a dispute as to what caused that pulmonary
6 embolism. The Church, through those people who watched
7 Lisa McPherson, did everything they could to keep her
8 alive, I believe.
9 Q And when did you come to this totally 180-degree
10 change in your opinion?
11 A Well, during the course of a number of
12 discussions with Mike Rinder and/or Ben Shaw together, you
13 know, we had -- Stacy and I had a lot of questions about
14 this case. And --
15 THE COURT: How many of these conversations
16 was Mr. Shaw involved in?
17 THE WITNESS: Over all, as opposed to just
18 on this subject, I think Mr. Shaw was in maybe three
19 meetings that we had.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q And how many meetings did you have with any
22 representative of the Church of Scientology?
23 A How many?
24 Q Yes.
25 A A lot, you know. I think at one stage I said it
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 984
1 was twelve. You know, it's probably 20 now.
2 Q Are you continuing to meet with him?
3 A Not recently. But, yes, you know, up until -- I
4 guess before this hearing started.
5 THE COURT: It was twelve before the hearing
6 started, right?
7 THE WITNESS: No. It was twelve at some
8 time, I think when I was on the stand -- you know,
9 approximately. I said approximately twelve.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q I think you said twelve when you were testifying
12 before Judge Baird on April 19th of 2002. Do you recall
13 that?
14 A I don't remember when.
15 Q Okay. So you have continued to meet with
16 representatives of the Church of Scientology, correct,
17 since April 19th?
18 A I don't know since when. I thought this was
19 April 9th that I testified in Judge Baird's case about
20 this.
21 Q That was the first time. And remember, we didn't
22 have the opportunity to cross-examine you at that hearing
23 on April 9th.
24 A Yes, that's right.
25 Q In fact, that was the first time we knew that you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 985
1 had this change in your testimony. I mean, you never --
2 A April 9th.
3 Q -- told anyone -- you never told me nor anyone
4 associated with the Estate of Lisa McPherson prior to your
5 testimony on April 9th that you had changed your -- you
6 were going to change your testimony from your prior
7 depositions. Is that correct?
8 A No. I told you. I told you I was going down
9 here and was going to tell the truth about those checks.
10 Q When did you tell me that?
11 A I told you -- I testified about it. It was on
12 the Sunday -- I think it was -- no, not the Sunday; the
13 Saturday morning. I'm standing out on the back porch of my
14 house, you know, with the phone in the kitchen, hanging out
15 the door, and told you that. I told you that on the 29th
16 and the night of the 29th that this is what, you know, I
17 was being advised I have to do. So . . .
18 Q We'll get to that.
19 A Okay.
20 Q When is the last time you met with a
21 representative of the Church of Scientology?
22 THE COURT: I think for these inquiries you
23 can assume that when he's using the "Church of
24 Scientology," he's using the --
25 THE WITNESS: Generically.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 986
1 THE COURT: -- the generic sense, not
2 necessarily Flag versus --
3 THE WITNESS: Right. I took it that way.
4 THE COURT: Am I correct?
5 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you are, Judge. Thank
6 you.
7 A Sometime while Stacy Brooks was testifying.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q So it was after -- you continued to meet them
10 throughout the time that you were testifying before Judge
11 Baird, and you continued to meet them while Stacy Brooks
12 was testifying, knowing that you were going to be
13 testifying here with Judge Schaeffer?
14 A Well, you know, I had purposes to meet with them
15 that were appropriate, in my opinion.
16 THE COURT: The answer then is yes?
17 Remember, I need an answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 THE COURT: Then you can explain that.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Could you repeat the
21 question or ask the court reporter to read it back.
22 THE COURT: Read it back, Madam Court
23 Reporter.
24 (The reporter read back as follows.
25 "Question: So it was after -- you continued
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 987
1 to meet them throughout the time that you
2 were testifying before Judge Baird, and you
3 continued to meet them while Stacy Brooks
4 was testifying, knowing that you were going
5 to be testifying here with Judge
6 Schaeffer?")
7 A Yes.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q I'm going to try to get to 2002 as quickly as I
10 can. Some more background here. Did you loan money to the
11 German government official Ursula Caberta?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q $75,000?
14 A That's correct.
15 THE COURT: Who are we talking about now?
16 MR. DANDAR: Ursula Caberta. U-r-c-u-l-a,
17 Caberta, C-a-b-e-r-t-a.
18 THE WITNESS: U-r-s-u-l-a.
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Sorry. And --
20 THE COURT: Who is she?
21 MR. DANDAR: She is a German government
22 official.
23 THE WITNESS: That's not entirely correct.
24 She's an official of the State of Hamburg in Germany,
25 as opposed to a federal government official.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 988
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: All right.
3 THE COURT: Like one of our state -- one of
4 our state's --
5 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 THE COURT: A state representative, for
7 example?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: Not at the representative
11 level. This is a specific function she serves as an
12 anti-cult activity.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Did you talk to the representatives of the Church
16 of Scientology about her loan?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you assign to anyone who is in any way
19 connected to the Church of Scientology her loan?
20 A The answer is no. But just to clear it up for
21 you, we haven't talked about any issues other than setting
22 the record straight and one other issue that I had to deal
23 with in the last couple of weeks.
24 Q What's that?
25 A Well, I had some concerns on these Wollersheim
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 989
1 monies, and, you know, it was apparent that monies were
2 going to be paid in to the court in California. And I had
3 discussions with Mr. Howie, and Mr. Howie had some
4 discussions with one of the Scientology lawyers. I'm not
5 sure whether it was Mr. Fugate or Ms. Yingling.
6 And, you know, I expressed some concern to
7 Mr. Rinder that, you know, if this money is paid in that,
8 you know, there could appear to be some sort of quid pro
9 quo, with me getting money out of that judgment.
10 Q And what was their response?
11 A Well --
12 THE COURT: "What's wrong with that?"
13 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there
14 wasn't -- well, what I was talking about is I didn't
15 want anybody to think that if this happened that there
16 was a quid pro quo relative to, you know, our
17 negotiations.
18 THE COURT: Well, I would hope at the end of
19 your negotiations, whatever they are, that there's a
20 quid pro quo, whatever it is you're giving up, you're
21 getting something in return. That's usually what
22 negotiations are all about. I've yet to figure out
23 what's going on here.
24 THE WITNESS: But --
25 THE COURT: Perhaps I will by the time this
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 990
1 is over.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. No, that's
3 not what I mean. You know, as I said, your Honor,
4 when I went in to these meetings in New York, you
5 know, I'm looking at, you know, how much is this going
6 to cost me to get out of this. Now, you know,
7 obviously, if 700 odd thousand dollars comes back to
8 me as a result of something that Church of Scientology
9 has done in California, my concern was this could look
10 bad here in this hearing, you know, that this was
11 something that could be raised as, you know, "Hell,
12 they're paying him off to do this."
13 THE COURT: You didn't want them to look
14 bad.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't want me to look
16 bad.
17 THE COURT: You didn't want you to look bad,
18 okay.
19 THE WITNESS: You know, they would look bad
20 too. But, you know, as I discussed with my counsel,
21 you know, I came to the conclusion that this wasn't a
22 problem after all.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q When did it become apparent to you that money was
25 going to be paid into the registry of the court in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 991
1 California in the Wollersheim case?
2 A Very shortly before it got paid.
3 Q And how did you know that?
4 A From a friend of Mr. Wollersheim's.
5 Q Who is that?
6 A Arnie Lerma.
7 Q How did Mr. Lerma learn that, do you know?
8 A I don't know -- well, I presume from Wollersheim.
9 They communicate closely.
10 Q Do you recall a lady by the name of Laura
11 Terepin?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you recall that she was sent in undercover to
14 either FACTNet or Ms. Brooks or Jesse Prince?
15 A That was my understanding, yes.
16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I missed that
17 altogether. Who?
18 MR. DANDAR: Laura Terepin, which I believe
19 is spelled T-e-r-a-p-i-n.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Now, when is the first time that you came across
22 her?
23 A Sometime in the summer of '98, I think.
24 Q Was this after your 5 1/2-hour meeting with
25 Mr. Rinder?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 992
1 A Yes.
2 Q And where was it at?
3 A Where was what at?
4 Q Where did she -- where did she surface at?
5 A With Stacy Brooks. You know, I didn't -- I don't
6 think -- well, did you ask me when I met her for the first
7 time?
8 Q Well, let's go there. When did you meet her for
9 the first time?
10 THE COURT: Who is this lady? I don't
11 know -- this is a new name.
12 MR. DANDAR: It is.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Mr. Minton, was she, as far as you know, an
15 undercover agent for the Church of Scientology?
16 A Was she?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes, I had reason to believe she was later.
19 Q And when did you meet her for the first time?
20 A Well, I guess sometime in '98, but I don't know
21 for sure. It could have been '99.
22 Q And where did you meet her?
23 A I don't know.
24 Q What state?
25 A Well, I met her once in California in San
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 993
1 Francisco -- oh, I remember when I first met her. This was
2 at a Cult Information Service of New York and New Jersey
3 conference at a Hilton Hotel in Newark, New Jersey. That's
4 where I first met her. I think that was in '98.
5 Q And how did you -- how did she present herself?
6 What was her story as to who she was?
7 A She was a former member of a cult of some kind.
8 She told Stacy all about it. I don't remember what it was.
9 Q And when did you --
10 A Came to the --
11 Q I'm sorry.
12 A I think it might have been an evangelical
13 Christian cult --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- because she later said she went to Wellspring,
16 and Wellspring deals with a lot of people from evangelical
17 Christian cults.
18 Q Wellspring also deals with people who come out of
19 Scientology?
20 A Not as many as they do with the others, but yes.
21 Q Okay. And when did you discover or come to the
22 conclusion that she was working for Scientology?
23 A Well, it was sometime in the latter part of '99
24 that we hired a couple of private investigators from San
25 Francisco, who came with Dan Leipold to New Hampshire and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 994
1 met with myself, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, and Brian
2 Haney.
3 And, you know, we discussed what had been going
4 on. And actually, there was a prior meeting with these
5 private investigators in Philadelphia that Stacy Brooks and
6 I had with the man who owned the private investigation
7 firm, whose name I forget, at the time.
8 And in any case, they came -- they eventually
9 came up to New Hampshire.
10 THE COURT: Can you tell me why you hired a
11 private investigator?
12 THE WITNESS: To find out --
13 THE COURT: This was all about this woman?
14 THE WITNESS: About this woman, yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: She was based in California,
17 so that's--
18 THE COURT: I see.
19 A And they were -- there's a major law firm in San
20 Francisco, Cooley something, and I forget their full name.
21 But they're actually doing some work for me now and they
22 did some work back then to put these investigators on this
23 case.
24 And, you know, they gathered enough information
25 about this woman to make us clearly believe that she was in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 995
1 fact somebody who the Church of Scientology had used for
2 many years, first in the Cult Awareness organization based
3 in Chicago and then in FACTNet to basically get information
4 about what people were doing and provide it to their
5 contacts, you know, who reported back to Scientology.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q She was a spy for Scientology?
8 A That's -- that's the belief that we had.
9 Q Did you tell her anything about the Lisa
10 McPherson case?
11 A Not that I remember.
12 Q Okay.
13 A I had very little contact with her.
14 Q Okay. Did --
15 A Stacy Brooks was the one who she was -- who she
16 had befriended, and she maybe called me a dozen times
17 and -- you know, a two-year period. But usually when she
18 called me she was looking for Stacy, who might be up there
19 in New Hampshire.
20 Q Have you had any conversations with Stacy Brooks
21 about what, if anything, this woman asked her about
22 concerning the Lisa McPherson case?
23 A Have I asked Stacy Brooks about that?
24 Q Yes.
25 A I don't remember whether I did or not.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 996
1 Q Or did Stacy Brooks tell you that this Laura
2 Terepin was one of the subjects that she talked about and
3 wanted information about, was the Lisa McPherson case?
4 A You know, I don't know what Stacy Brooks talked
5 about with her.
6 Q Okay.
7 THE COURT: No. He asked you whether she
8 had ever talked to you, Stacy Brooks had ever talked
9 to you, about the fact that Laura Terepin wanted
10 information from Stacy about the Lisa McPherson case.
11 Did Stacy tell you that?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that she ever
13 told me that.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Did you find out if Laura Terepin was her real
16 name?
17 A I think we found out that was a fake name.
18 Q What was her real name?
19 A Jolie Steckart, J-o-l-i-e S-t-e-c-k-a-r-t.
20 Q And you also found out that not only was she
21 spying on you and FACTNet, but she also spying on the Cult
22 Awareness Network?
23 A Prior to, you know, being run in on us, so to
24 speak.
25 Q All right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 997
1 THE COURT: This is a member of the Church
2 of Scientology?
3 THE WITNESS: No -- well, we don't know for
4 sure, but the belief is that she was never a member,
5 that this was the investigation. She was just a -- an
6 opportunist working for money.
7 THE COURT: Well, who was she working for?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, we thought she was
9 working for a private investigator.
10 THE COURT: Who was the private investigator
11 working for?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, we had reason to believe
13 that he was working for the Church of Scientology. Or
14 another private investigator. You know, eventually we
15 thought it led back there, but we didn't have any
16 proof of that.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Did you gather any documents to show that this
19 woman was in fact working ultimately for the Church of
20 Scientology?
21 A You mean like phone records?
22 Q Phone records, documents, whatever.
23 A Well, some phone records were examined.
24 Q And did they show links to the Church of
25 Scientology?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 998
1 A Well, they showed links to these private
2 investigators.
3 Q Who?
4 A David Lee, stroke, David Lebeau.
5 Q He's one of the most well-known private
6 investigators for the Church of Scientology, isn't he?
7 THE COURT: Who? I heard two names here.
8 David Lee, David -- two different --
9 THE WITNESS: David Lee is an alias. David
10 Lee is an alias, we believe.
11 THE COURT: He's an alias? I mean, that's
12 an alias?
13 THE WITNESS: As opposed to an alien. No,
14 that is an alias name.
15 THE COURT: David Lee is the alias he uses,
16 but his real name is David Lebeau?
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q And it's true that David Lee or David Lebeau,
20 whatever, is a well-known private investigator for the
21 Church of Scientology?
22 A You know, I believe that we discovered that he
23 works for one of the law firms that Scientology uses.
24 THE COURT: Which one?
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- we thought it was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 999
1 Moxin & Kobrin.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Do you have any reports from --
4 A Or, I'm sorry, or Abelson. We didn't know for
5 sure.
6 Q Did you get any reports from your private
7 investigators on Laura Terepin?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you still have those?
10 A I don't think I do.
11 Q Did you turn them over to the Church of
12 Scientology?
13 A No.
14 Q Who has them?
15 A I think that would be attorney/client privilege.
16 Q Not the location. Who has them?
17 A Oh.
18 THE COURT: It's not privileged.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 THE COURT: That's a conversation. That is
21 a question: Where are these reports?
22 MR. HOWIE: I believe that's correct, your
23 Honor.
24 THE WITNESS: I believe Mr. Leipold has
25 them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1000
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Isn't Mr. Leipold still your attorney?
3 A He's got a big retainer to work off.
4 Q So the answer is yes?
5 A So the answer is yes.
6 Q When you telephoned Mr. Wollersheim -- I mean
7 Mr. Leipold, sorry -- to get him to dismiss the Wollersheim
8 case, was he your attorney at that time during that
9 conversation?
10 A Well, he's got a conflicting role vis-a-vis
11 Wollersheim and myself.
12 Q Until you met with the representative of --
13 A And -- I'm still going to try to finish that --
14 Q I'm sorry.
15 A -- answer.
16 Q I'm sorry.
17 A He has represented me with respect to some things
18 within the Wollersheim case, despite his representation of
19 Wollersheim as well in the case. So it's a little bit
20 messy for him, I believe.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY THE COURT:
23 Q Well, obviously from the letter I read, he
24 doesn't think he's your lawyer, I take it.
25 A Well, you know, I don't know what he thinks at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1001
1 this stage.
2 Q Well, you had called and told him to withdraw an
3 affidavit, and he refused to do that. You told him to
4 withdraw Ms. Brooks' affidavit, right?
5 A Well, that was after Ms. Brooks had talked to
6 him, yes.
7 Q Right. You called him. You're his client. You
8 called him and directed him to do something, and he told
9 you no.
10 A Well, it wasn't in connection with something he
11 could do for me. I'm asking him to do me a favor because
12 she asked me, and he said no.
13 Q No. You were asking him to do something because,
14 according to this letter, this was important to whatever it
15 is that you were negotiating with the Church of
16 Scientology. Isn't that true?
17 A Well, if that's what he says in the letter,
18 that's what he said.
19 Q I'm asking you, sir. Isn't that true?
20 A Well --
21 Q Yes or no?
22 A I'm going to tell you, Ms. Brooks said --
23 Q Yes or no, that the calls were made because that
24 was important to some of your negotiation with the Church
25 of Scientology.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1002
1 A It was important because Ms. Brooks believed the
2 affidavit was false, in part.
3 Q Is your answer to my question yes or no, that
4 part of your negotiation with the Church of Scientology
5 that was going on there required Ms. Brooks to try to get
6 that affidavit withdrawn?
7 A Well, the -- the word "negotiation" --
8 Q I need a yes or no, and then you can explain all
9 you want.
10 A So could you ask me --
11 Q Was that part of your negotiation?
12 A What came out of our negotiation, your Honor, is
13 setting the record straight, including --
14 Q Then your answer is yes, and you're explaining
15 it? Is that it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now go on.
18 A Including setting the record straight by Stacy
19 Brooks with regards to that affidavit.
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q What did Mr. Leipold represent you in in the
23 Wollersheim case?
24 A Concerning the UCC liens.
25 Q He filed the lien for you?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1003
1 A No.
2 Q What?
3 A He prepared -- I don't know whether you would
4 call it a pleading, but a motion to be lodged in the court
5 in California securing -- making sure that my monies were
6 secure. He provided, you know, additional, you know, lien
7 forms so that the lien could be renewed when it expired,
8 that type of thing.
9 Q Well, that doesn't present a conflict of interest
10 with Mr. Wollersheim, who asked you for this money and the
11 money helped him pursue his judgment.
12 A Well, you're the lawyer; I assume you know more
13 about conflict of interest.
14 Q Well, what's your understanding? Are you saying
15 Mr. Wollersheim did not want to protect your loan?
16 A Well, I understood very recently that he was very
17 anxious to let my lien expire before this interpleading
18 stuff finished so he could walk away from paying me back.
19 Q Did that happen?
20 A The money is still in the court. The lien hasn't
21 expired yet.
22 Q Okay. When you called Mr. Leipold to get him to
23 dismiss or withdraw the Stacy Brooks affidavit in the
24 Wollersheim case, was that a very pleasant conversation?
25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was still trying to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1004
1 read over this letter from Mr. Leipold.
2 I mean, Mr. -- have you seen this letter?
3 From Mr. Leipold to Mr. Dandar?
4 THE WITNESS: I haven't, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: About conversations with Robert
6 Minton and Stacy Brooks?
7 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen it.
8 THE COURT: Do you want to read it?
9 THE WITNESS: Sure.
10 THE COURT: Take your time. I'm going to
11 take a break. It's 10:30.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 THE COURT: And you may read it during the
14 break.
15 THE WITNESS: Can I take it out of the --
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: -- for a cigarette outside?
18 THE COURT: You sure can. I think that's
19 important, to have a smoke or two. But you can't --
20 in other words, that's my copy. I have to have it.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. So don't fold it up.
22 THE BAILIFF: How long, your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Let me make sure I didn't make
24 any notes on it. I don't think I did.
25 THE BAILIFF: How long, your Honor?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1005
1 THE COURT: Twenty -- 15, 20 minutes,
2 whenever I'm done with all the business I've got to
3 do.
4 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, I would
5 like to have an opportunity to review the letter as
6 well in case matters of privilege need to be raised.
7 THE COURT: This is in evidence, for
8 heaven's sake.
9 MR. HOWIE: I have not seen that copy, your
10 Honor.
11 THE COURT: I've got some underlining. I
12 guess I'm going to have to run it through a copier.
13 It's probably -- I'll either give it to you at this
14 break or the next break. I think if I run this
15 through a copier it'll go away.
16 THE BAILIFF: If it's highlighted, yes, your
17 Honor.
18 THE COURT: It's highlighted. The problem
19 is it's highlighted in this pink. I think pink is
20 bad.
21 (An off-the-record discussion was held.)
22 (A break was taken at 10:32 a.m. until
23 11:02 a.m.)
24 THE COURT: You may be seated.
25 I sent my secretary down to give you a copy
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1006
1 of that.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, she did. Thank you very
3 much.
4 THE COURT: I don't have mine now, but I
5 guess I don't really need it.
6 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm going to mark the
7 May 1st, 2002, letter from Mr. Leipold to me as
8 defendant's next exhibit.
9 THE COURT: Well, I think it's already
10 marked.
11 MR. DANDAR: I couldn't find it anywhere.
12 THE COURT: Well, I remember we discussed
13 it.
14 MR. DANDAR: We did, but there was an
15 objection by Mr. Hertzberg, representing the Church of
16 Scientology, that the letter may contain
17 attorney/client information and that we should wait
18 until Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton had an opportunity to
19 look at the letter.
20 THE COURT: All right. Well, Madam
21 Bailiff --
22 THE BAILIFF: Yes.
23 THE COURT: -- go in my office, if you will.
24 Have my secretary -- I think she probably gave me the
25 letter back, and it's probably in my office somewhere.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1007
1 THE BAILIFF: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Tell her it's the one that has
3 the pink on it --
4 THE BAILIFF: Okay.
5 THE COURT: -- and bring it in here.
6 Unless you have another copy of it.
7 MR. DANDAR: I --
8 THE COURT: If you don't, I'll just get
9 mine.
10 MR. DANDAR: I kind of know what it says, so
11 here you go.
12 THE COURT: When she comes in with mine,
13 I'll give you this back.
14 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. All right.
15 I'll just hand the witness the first copy of
16 Defense Exhibit 52, the May 1st, 2002, letter -- which
17 you already have a copy of, so I'll take it back. Now
18 we have an extra copy.
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have a
20 procedural matter to ask you about.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: These that come up here with
23 this on it --
24 THE COURT: Oh, yes.
25 THE WITNESS: -- those are different than
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1008
1 the ones that I've --
2 THE COURT: Those, Mr. Dandar, are the
3 clerk's originals. You need to give those back.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. There are some other
5 ones here too.
6 THE COURT: Any of those are the clerk's,
7 which means they're the originals --
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 THE COURT: -- and sometime before you get
10 off the stand you need to go through all of those and
11 take out any that have those little white tags and
12 yellow tags.
13 Are you using white and yellow down there?
14 THE CLERK: Yes, I am.
15 THE COURT: Okay. White and yellow tags.
16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I usually check at the
17 end of the day, because I'm the one that's supposed to
18 go over that.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. FUGATE: And so far we've gotten them
21 all back.
22 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff's 49 and 51 are
23 Mr. Minton's postings, which we will move into
24 evidence.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Which -- I've got to look at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1009
1 my notes here.
2 THE COURT: Thanks.
3 THE BAILIFF: You're welcome.
4 THE COURT: Here's an extra copy.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I just --
6 THE COURT: Here's an extra