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341
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 4
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert S. Minton.
17
DATE: May 21, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
342
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
6 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
7 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
8 Organization.
9
MR. LEE FUGATE and
10 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
11 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
12 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
13
14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
15 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
19 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
20 Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
343
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Mr. Rick Spector
Ms. Sarah Heller
8 Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
9 Ms. Joyce Earl
Ms. Donna West
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
344
1 THE COURT: We were going to take up some legal
2 matters.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: We need Mr. Moxon, too. I
4 guess everyone took two o'clock too literally, your
5 Honor.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: That is all right.
8 MR. DANDAR: Oh, Judge, we were able to find
9 two articles, attacks on Scientology, one by
10 Mr. Frank March, 1997 and EO Tax Bulletin, 1997 --
11 is this the New York Times --
12 THE COURT: I just wanted to know what he was
13 talking about.
14 MR. DANDAR: Let me be sure that is all I gave
15 you.
16 Yes, okay.
17 THE COURT: You want to keep going with the
18 testimony and we'll deal with this legal stuff a
19 little later?
20 MR. FUGATE: Whatever your pleasure, Judge.
21 Actually, I was trying to get this off so it doesn't
22 blind us all.
23 Whatever your --
24 THE COURT: Whatever my pleasure? I'm not
25 sure.
345
1 MR. FUGATE: That is a stupid way to phrase it,
2 by the way, too, around here.
3 Judge, you want me just to go on?
4 THE COURT: Yes, go ahead, we'll take this up
5 maybe after the next break. It's hard to shift from
6 facts to law.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q Mr. Minton, when we left off, we were back on
9 Paragraph 6. And I want to go back to that for a couple of
10 items, if I may.
11 If you see, in the second sentence there -- well,
12 first sentence is you were -- there was an indication you
13 were not to participate in the control of the litigation.
14 And in the second sentence it talks about,
15 "Mr. Dandar began immediately consulting with me about the
16 conduct of the litigation."
17 Do you see where you said that, sir?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, when we were talking about the meeting, in
20 your testimony, in August of 1999 in Philadelphia --
21 A Right.
22 Q -- you were talking about you wanted to put more
23 emphasis on attacking the religion or religious issues. Is
24 that correct?
25 A Oh --
346
1 THE COURT: What is the date again, I'm sorry?
2 MR. FUGATE: August 26, really, of 1999.
3 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
4 THE COURT: It's the one meeting but we changed
5 the dates a couple times.
6 MR. FUGATE: I think somehow one time it got to
7 be May. But the check is dated the 27th, really
8 handed over on the 26th. I think we established the
9 date.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Do you know where we are talking about now?
12 A I do, yes.
13 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading.
14 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to just get him back to
15 it.
16 THE COURT: I think he's just trying to get him
17 back to a point in time. So proceed.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q Now, as part of your -- well, at that point in
20 time, had you been talking to -- and I'm saying at that
21 point in time being in August, in or about August of 1999,
22 had you been talking to Mr. Dandar about the litigation and
23 what you wanted to see happening in the litigation?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, there was mention made, I think in
347
1 Mr. Dandar's testimony, about him being at a meeting in Key
2 West in August of 1999, as well. Were you aware of that
3 meeting?
4 A Mmm, well, I think what we said -- I didn't
5 remember the date of that meeting. But you were going to
6 show me that pleading or something on that religiosity issue
7 to refresh my recollection of the date of that Key West
8 meeting.
9 Q Well, I'm going to ask you some questions and show
10 you a posting, if I might.
11 A Okay.
12 Q Do you recall, as of August of 1999, had you been
13 funding Jesse Prince?
14 A Yes. Yes, I had been.
15 Q And how had you been funding Mr. Jesse Prince?
16 A By check and by cash, through his working at
17 FACTNet, you know, paying him while he was going out to work
18 for Mr. Leipold, you know. Pretty all-encompassing support.
19 Q Now, as of August of 1999, had you been providing
20 funding -- providing funding to Stacy Brooks, as well?
21 A Yes, I had.
22 Q And preceding August had you been doing that on a
23 regular basis?
24 A Before August of '99?
25 Q Uh-huh.
348
1 A Yes.
2 Q I should say yes.
3 And had you provided funds prior to August of 1999
4 to one Vaughn Young, as well?
5 A Well, I never directly provided funds to Vaughn
6 Young. You know, I provided funds to Stacy Brooks, who was
7 the one who dealt with the money in the house. But, yes. I
8 mean, I had been, through that mechanism.
9 Q Now, the Key West meeting, regardless of the date
10 of that meeting, do you have knowledge that Mr. Prince,
11 Jesse Prince, went to that meeting?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And do you have knowledge that Dan Leipold went to
14 that meeting?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And do you have knowledge that Ford Greene went to
17 that meeting?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you have knowledge Mr. Dandar went to that
20 meeting?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And I think you had indicated in your testimony
23 before we broke for lunch that you wanted to -- you wanted
24 to get Leipold and Greene into the case with Mr. Dandar --
25 or words like that. I'm going to ask you what your
349
1 recollection is of it so I'm not putting words in your
2 mouth, to press on certain issues. Do you recall that?
3 A I do.
4 Q And what issues were you trying to get them
5 involved in with Mr. Dandar?
6 A Mainly, attacking Scientology on this whole
7 religious issue.
8 Q Now, sir --
9 A There was also -- there was also a lot of
10 discussion back and forth, which I don't think eventually
11 ever amounted to anything, concerning the alter ego
12 therapies Leipold was using in the Wollersheim case and how
13 they might be somehow applicable here. But I don't think it
14 ever became a major issue in this case.
15 Q And on Friday, I believe you testified that you
16 were aware that Jesse Prince had done an affidavit that
17 would be utilized in the wrongful death case. Do you recall
18 that?
19 A Yes. I'm aware of that.
20 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. FUGATE: I think it's already --
23 MR. DANDAR: I would object if he approaches
24 without foundation established as to when he first
25 saw this affidavit, because the affidavit will
350
1 disclose a date on it.
2 THE COURT: All right. Fair enough.
3 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, may I approach the
4 clerk?
5 THE COURT: You may.
6 MR. FUGATE: What is our next number?
7 THE CLERK: 106.
8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this would be marked for
9 identification as Defendant's 106. It's a posting.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Is this the affidavit
11 you-all have been referring to throughout this case?
12 No?
13 MR. DANDAR: Not what I have been handed. This
14 is a posting.
15 THE COURT: No, but the affidavit.
16 MR. DANDAR: That is 1 and 2.
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is the one -- that is the
18 end of cycle one.
19 THE COURT: I have this one then.
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you have that one.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Sir, I have just showed you what has been
24 marked -- and I forgot the number, going back and forth.
25 THE CLERK: 106.
351
1 MR. FUGATE: 106?
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q -- Defendant's 106 for identification. Do you
4 recognize that 106 as a posting that you authored?
5 A Let me get to the part that I wrote.
6 Q And it is important you identify for the Court
7 what you mean by "the part" you wrote.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you were having
9 some questions the other day about all these little
10 carets or these signs where it says Stickwork.
11 THE COURT: Yes?
12 THE WITNESS: The person above -- on the line
13 above that on August 21, 1999, R. Keller wrote --
14 and what he's saying, he's repeating something
15 someone else wrote named Stickwork. And carets in
16 front of that and the colon indicate that was
17 written by Stickwork.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: Then on the second page in the
20 second paragraph where there is only a single caret
21 there in front of the three lines, "It's been
22 suggested they took her to New Port Richey" --
23 THE COURT: Yes?
24 THE WITNESS: -- those are written by Rod
25 Keller.
352
1 And my response to Rod Keller is following
2 that. "Rod, you're getting closer."
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q So from "Rod, you're getting closer," to "Bob
6 Minton" at the bottom, would that be something you wrote,
7 sir?
8 A It is, yes.
9 Q Could you tell us a date that you wrote that?
10 A That was August 21, Saturday.
11 Q Of?
12 A 1999.
13 MR. FUGATE: All right. And I would move
14 Defendant's 106 into evidence, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
17 THE COURT: It will be --
18 MR. DANDAR: Except the part written by
19 Stickwork and Rod Keller. That is not this
20 witness's --
21 THE COURT: Well, it's a posting so I'm going
22 to let it in. I mean, some of this stuff is not
23 going to be important. I don't care what Stickwork
24 wrote.
25
353
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Do you see the highlighted portion on yours, "A
3 couple of very key questions yet to be answered are where
4 did she die and how long was Lisa dead before David
5 Miscavige, Ray Mithoff and Marty Rathbun decided to have her
6 transported to New Port Richey Hospital." Do you see that?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q And do you recall where you got the information
9 that you posed in the question there as to the purported
10 involvement of David Miscavige, Ray Mithoff and Marty
11 Rathbun?
12 A Well, I'll answer it in two parts.
13 The first part: "A couple of very key questions
14 yet to be answered are where did she die," that came from
15 Mr. Dandar.
16 And the second part, "How long was Lisa dead
17 before David Miscavige, Ray Mithoff, and Marty Rathbun
18 decided to have her transported to New Port Richey Hospital"
19 was either from Jesse or Mr. Dandar. I don't know who
20 discussed that with me.
21 Q Then you see the last phrase there, "Some Scienos
22 will due --" although it is D-U-E "-- time for Lisa
23 McPherson"?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What did you mean by that?
354
1 A Well, that, you know, one or more of these three
2 people up there might end up going to jail and serving time
3 for having been involved in the murder of Lisa McPherson.
4 Q And is the murder of Lisa McPherson -- I think you
5 testified to that earlier -- something you wanted to push in
6 the litigation?
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q Now, with regard to the affidavit of Jesse Prince
9 that was utilized in the case, do you know when you first
10 saw a copy of that affidavit?
11 A Mmm, this would lead me to believe that I'd seen
12 it before this was written.
13 Q Well, do you have a recollection?
14 A Before it was signed, I mean. Sorry.
15 Q Okay.
16 A You know, I don't think Mr. Dandar showed it to me
17 in Philadelphia.
18 Q Had you seen it before you went to Philadelphia,
19 though, on or around August 26 of 1999?
20 A Yes. I believe I had seen it before then.
21 MR. FUGATE: All right, may I approach the
22 witness and show him the affidavit and ask if that
23 refreshes his recollection?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25
355
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q First of all, if you just look at this and see if
3 what I have handed you is a copy of the affidavit of Jesse
4 Prince that you have been referring to.
5 A I have never seen it before with all of the
6 attachments to it. But --
7 THE COURT: Me, either.
8 A -- but -- yeah, I recognize this as Jesse's
9 affidavit of August 20, 1999.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q And is it your testimony you saw this before it
12 was actually even signed?
13 A Mmm, I believe I did.
14 THE COURT: Does that mean that you're not
15 sure? Or you think you did? Or --
16 THE WITNESS: I'm not a hundred percent sure,
17 your Honor, but I believe I did.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q But were you generally aware of the information
21 that was in there?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And when you met in Philadelphia on August 26 of
24 1999, do you know if the Key West meeting had already taken
25 place?
356
1 A You know, I'm still not a hundred percent sure on
2 the timing of that Key West meeting.
3 Q At any rate, the affidavit that you have now in
4 front of you that was executed on the 20th of August, 1999,
5 is that generally the gist of what you wanted to have
6 injected into the litigation?
7 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Vagueness.
8 THE COURT: Well, yes, it's an awful long
9 affidavit. I would assume he would have to study
10 that and read every word of it and --
11 MR. FUGATE: Actually, I thought I'd asked.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q You are familiar with the affidavit. Correct?
14 A I am.
15 Q And were you familiar with -- are you familiar
16 with it from discussing it with Mr. Prince?
17 A I have discussed it with Mr. Prince.
18 Q Were you familiar with it from discussing it with
19 Mr. Prince prior to the time it was actually executed?
20 A You know, I would like to be able to give you a
21 definitive answer, but I just, unfortunately, can't.
22 Q Well, you have to testify the best you can under
23 oath, sir.
24 A Yes.
25 Q My question, though, is this a point in time in
357
1 August of 1999, though, when you were paying Jesse Prince?
2 A It is.
3 Q And is Jesse Prince -- I think -- well, how did
4 Jesse Prince get to Mr. Dandar, if you know?
5 THE COURT: We have been through this,
6 Counselor.
7 MR. FUGATE: Pardon me?
8 THE COURT: You have been through this,
9 Counsel, at least two or three times.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Was the subject of the expanding, if you will, the
12 lawsuit, was that the subject of the August 26, 1999 meeting
13 in Philadelphia?
14 A Expanding the Scientology aspects of it, yes. You
15 know, to take it away from a simple wrongful death case.
16 Q Now, sir, if you go to --
17 THE COURT: In 1999?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: In 1999 you are saying that you
20 thought that the thing was -- the thing, that is a
21 very poor choice of words -- the lawsuit of the
22 Estate of Lisa McPherson versus the Church of
23 Scientology was just a simple wrongful death case?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. -- Mr. Dandar and
25 Dr. Garko were -- and I don't remember whether there
358
1 was a discussion with Dr. Garko on more than one
2 occasion about this, but --
3 THE COURT: Sounds like an explanation.
4 I want to know on that day, August of 1999, is
5 it your belief, having seen, you said, the first
6 amended complaint, that the case was still a simple
7 wrongful death case?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, that is the way Mr. Dandar
9 saw it, and that is the way he communicated it to
10 me.
11 THE COURT: Did you read -- did you take the
12 time to read this first amended complaint?
13 THE WITNESS: I have, your Honor. I realize
14 what it says.
15 THE COURT: Well, I don't think then you need
16 me to read into the record some of the allegations
17 in here.
18 Oh, that is the wrong thing.
19 They're fairly outrageous, aren't they?
20 THE WITNESS: They are, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: But, nonetheless, you, because
22 Mr. Dandar told you, having read this, thought that
23 this was just a, quote, simple wrongful death case?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, that is the way -- the
25 reason this is a very significant thing to me,
359
1 because I remember, you know, what I said to him
2 after the "holding the Lisa McPherson against her
3 will" charges were dropped.
4 And that was that, okay, you finally got what
5 you wanted, you know, you got a simple wrongful
6 death case because all of the damn Scientology
7 aspects of this case are stripped out of it.
8 And this is something Mr. Dandar said all
9 along, that he just wanted a simple wrongful death
10 case.
11 Obviously, the first amended complaint has got
12 a lot of inflammatory language in it. But I'm just
13 saying what Mr. Dandar said, that, you know, he
14 wanted in this thing, that he wanted a simple --
15 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, I'm assuming you have
16 got a brain.
17 THE WITNESS: I do.
18 THE COURT: I know that you do. I mean, Count
19 1 -- I am only looking at first amended complaint.
20 How many were filed by this August of '99 date?
21 MR. DANDAR: Five.
22 THE COURT: Well, okay --
23 MR. DANDAR: Four.
24 THE WITNESS: Four.
25 MR. DANDAR: Well, your Honor, we were on the
360
1 fourth amended complaint at that time.
2 THE COURT: Well, I am not even onto two, three
3 and four. But this one, as I said, I went through
4 it this morning, it's so long I couldn't even read
5 it all. It is 35 pages, filed on or about the 4th
6 of December of 1997. It's 35 pages.
7 It has got outrageous allegations. If I were
8 the Church, I would say these are fairly outrageous
9 allegations, as a preliminary.
10 MR. FUGATE: We did.
11 THE COURT: And as a preliminary to everything,
12 Count 1 is statutory wrongful death, which takes up
13 a page.
14 Count 2 is common law wrongful death, which
15 takes up a page or page and a half.
16 Count 3 is intentional and reckless infliction
17 of emotional distress.
18 Count 4 is false imprisonment.
19 Count 5 is a violation under Florida Statute
20 Chapter 400, which has to do with nursing home care.
21 MR. FUGATE: Nursing home.
22 THE COURT: Count 6 is a violation of Chapter
23 415.
24 Count 7 is fraud.
25 Count 8 is rescission of contract.
361
1 Count 9 is deceptive trade practices.
2 Count 10 is intentional reckless infliction of
3 emotional distress.
4 Count 11 is battery.
5 Count 12 is negligence. Count 13 is civil
6 conspiracy.
7 Count 14 is violation of some other chapter,
8 458, practicing medicine without a license.
9 And you are telling me you thought this was a
10 simple wrongful death case?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, if I may
12 explain.
13 THE COURT: Because Mr. Dandar told you that?
14 THE WITNESS: No. No, your Honor, this was --
15 this was the pattern that had -- has been used in
16 all of the Scientology litigation that I have seen,
17 you know, going back to this Fishman case and all
18 these other, just put as much stuff on the wall as
19 you can possibly put and hope some of it sticks, no
20 matter how outrageous it is. I mean, that is the
21 way this litigation against Scientology has been
22 done, your Honor.
23 Mr. Dandar, you know, was saying, you know,
24 it's a simple wrongful death case. Obviously, the
25 charges that were in this first amended complaint
362
1 are broad and sweeping. It is an attack on
2 Scientology. At the end of the day what has
3 happened in this case is there is a simple wrongful
4 death case, by and large. That is all that is left.
5 THE COURT: That is, what, the fifth amended
6 complaint?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, after -- you know, after
8 there had been summary judgment and motions on
9 holding Lisa McPherson against her will, you know,
10 basically it's come down to a simple wrongful death
11 case.
12 And I remember saying to Mr. Dandar, after that
13 charge was dropped, that it's -- you know, bottom
14 line now, it's going to be your expert witnesses
15 versus their expert witnesses, you know, in terms of
16 the medical evidence. And that is all there is.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, let me see if I can
19 ask some questions to try to focus this, because I
20 think I may have caused some confusion by my
21 questioning.
22 THE COURT: No, you didn't cause any confusion.
23 I wanted simply to see if this witness meant what he
24 said.
25 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
363
1 THE COURT: He said at the time of this meeting
2 in 1999, he was saying let's get on with the
3 business about getting to Scientology, I don't want
4 this just simple wrongful death. That is what he
5 said. And that is what he said several times.
6 And I haven't read two, three and four lately.
7 I will, however, once again, to see if they deviated
8 anyplace from this first amended complaint. But
9 this is anything but a simple wrongful death
10 complaint.
11 MR. FUGATE: Well, I agree.
12 THE COURT: I guess I was trying to get the man
13 to explain to me what he meant. And I don't know
14 what he's saying exactly. I think he now said --
15 well, he said what he said. But, you know, I don't
16 care whether you are confused. I care about him.
17 You are not the witness. He is.
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I understand that, Judge.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Prior to 1999, August of 1999, do you know, by
21 looking at your figures up there, how much you had provided
22 in funding to Mr. Dandar for the wrongful death litigation?
23 A Prior to August of '99?
24 Q Uh-huh.
25 A You know, my records indicate $600,000.
364
1 Q And had you communicated with Mr. Dandar as those
2 amounts were paid in to cover the expenses and costs of the
3 wrongful death case, as you have testified about, the
4 direction and course of the litigation?
5 A Well, you know, in that meeting in Philadelphia --
6 Q I'm talking about prior to Philadelphia, had you
7 had those sorts of discussions?
8 A I'm sorry. Ask me again. I'm sorry.
9 Q Over the course of the payments that you have just
10 indicated that added up to roughly $600,000 prior to
11 Philadelphia, if that number is right, had you had
12 discussions with Mr. Dandar about the course and conduct of
13 the litigation prior to Philadelphia?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. And were you communicating with him
16 about your thoughts or ideas about the lawsuit prior to
17 Philadelphia?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And when you get to Philadelphia, what is it, in
20 particular, that you are trying to communicate to
21 Mr. Dandar?
22 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered before lunch.
23 THE COURT: Well, I'm still confused so I'm
24 going to allow it. Overruled.
25
365
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Do you understand the question?
3 A I do. Mmm, well, again, going back to the whole
4 issue of the Scientology aspects of the case, you know, Lisa
5 McPherson was somebody who died on the introspection
6 rundown. It wasn't just a simple, you know, wrongful death
7 case. This was a case about Scientology. Scientology was
8 always the issue, from day one, in this case, you know, from
9 my involvement in it.
10 Q Well, can I ask you a question? What about, from
11 your understanding, perspective, the involvement of Stacy
12 Brooks?
13 THE COURT: The involvement of Stacy Brooks?
14 MR. FUGATE: Well, he said "from my
15 involvement."
16 A From my perspective.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q I'm asking him, do you know what Ms. Brooks's
19 perspective was up until that point in time?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Hearsay.
22 THE COURT: I would think -- it sort of is
23 hearsay. We heard from Ms. Brooks in this case. I
24 don't know how much of that --
25 MR. FUGATE: Well --
366
1 THE COURT: I mean, after six days of her
2 testimony, or seven or eight, or however many it
3 was, I don't know how much of this they discussed.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Well, let me ask you this way. As of August
6 through December of 1999, were you in direct contact,
7 through those months, with Stacy Brooks?
8 A On practically a daily basis, yes.
9 Q Were you in direct contact with Jesse Prince?
10 A Very frequently.
11 Q And to your knowledge and understanding, were
12 Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks working with and/or for Ken
13 Dandar in the various iterations of the complaints, whatever
14 the numbers were, from August through December of 1999?
15 A Yes. They were.
16 Q And to your knowledge, sir, were you communicating
17 to Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks what you wanted to see
18 interjected into the litigation?
19 A You know, I remember summarizing it one time as
20 basically nailing the cult's ass to the floor.
21 Q Were you communicating that to Jesse Prince during
22 this period of time?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Were you communicating that to Stacy Brooks during
25 this period of time?
367
1 A Absolutely.
2 Q Were you communicating that to Ken Dandar during
3 this period of time?
4 A Yes. I did.
5 Q And did you, in your own mind, feel that that was
6 being done, in your own mind, in the litigation?
7 A For what period again?
8 Q From August of '99 through December of '99.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And did you continue to --
11 THE COURT: Wait a second. You're talking
12 about this was being done for a three-month period
13 only in this lawsuit?
14 MR. FUGATE: No. No. No. I was asking his
15 perspective during the period of time. You've been
16 talking, Judge, about a variety of iterations or
17 complaints, that as my recollection is, spanned from
18 September through to December of 1999.
19 And I'm asking him, during that period of time
20 was that the perspective, was that the instruction
21 and was that his understanding of what was going on.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 A The answer to that, again, was yes.
24 THE COURT: So the only time that, quote,
25 anybody nailed the cult's ass to the floor is from
368
1 September to December of 1999, is that your
2 testimony?
3 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. What I'm saying,
4 during that time period there was a clear effort to
5 do that.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: Or there was a more clear effort.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Now, if I can direct your attention to Paragraph 8
10 of your affidavit.
11 THE COURT: And how was that -- I guess I need
12 to know, because I don't know what this witness is
13 talking about, I'm a little confused. What was it
14 from August to October of --
15 MR. FUGATE: December.
16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, August to December.
17 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Is that what he testified to,
19 August to December of 1999, that was being done
20 to -- differently to nail the cult's ass to the
21 floor?
22 THE WITNESS: The fifth amended complaint.
23 THE COURT: The fifth amended complaint? Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: Utilizing, you know, Jesse
25 Prince's affidavit.
369
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q I was just asking you if you would look to
3 Paragraph 8 of your affidavit. Do you have that in front of
4 you, sir?
5 A I do.
6 Q The second affidavit.
7 THE COURT: And is that -- is that all you are
8 speaking about as to, what, during this period of
9 time, was specifically done in this regard was --
10 well, I don't know if you are saying all, but the
11 principal thing that was done was the fifth amended
12 complaint was filed?
13 THE WITNESS: Well -- well, getting it ready.
14 That wasn't the only thing, but it was the principal
15 thing.
16 THE COURT: The principal thing? Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: Getting this whole -- getting
18 this whole concept of going after these Scientology
19 witnesses was also part of that.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Have you got your affidavit there?
23 A My affidavit. Yes.
24 Q And I know we're jumping back in time, but I'll
25 try to get back on track here in your affidavit.
370
1 THE COURT: Are we done talking about the -- I
2 don't know that we finished Paragraph 6. I thought,
3 when we left for lunch, he was telling me about the
4 religiosity issue in this New York Times article.
5 Are we just going to ignore that?
6 MR. FUGATE: Not ignore it, Judge. I thought I
7 would progress on and try to go through these. I
8 have them really referenced with exhibits because it
9 makes it easier.
10 THE COURT: I want to know because you had an
11 opportunity, because I gather you are past Page 6,
12 you had the lunch break to think about it.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Is there anything else you want to
15 add for my consideration as to other things that
16 Mr. Dandar did where you said, "Mr. Dandar would do
17 things in the litigation designed to satisfy my
18 wishes and, thus, get more money from me"? Have you
19 pretty well covered that?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, there is another section in
21 the affidavit.
22 THE COURT: Okay, what section is that?
23 THE WITNESS: It's a section called
24 "Confidential Information," which is in the -- let
25 me try to find the page -- starting on Page 21, in
371
1 55.
2 THE COURT: 55? Paragraph --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Paragraph 55 on Page 21.
4 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 55. I'm sorry. You
5 know, some of that I already testified about, to the
6 mediation discussions in June or July of '98.
7 THE COURT: Okay. So -- so whatever this
8 confidential information was that you were getting
9 is part of what you're talking about in Number 6?
10 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?
12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so.
13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Go ahead,
14 Mr. Fugate.
15 MR. FUGATE: All right, let me flip back,
16 Judge, if you'll bear with me a moment.
17 THE COURT: Sure.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q Did you -- have you had a chance to read Paragraph
20 8, Mr. Minton?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Can you tell us what you recall how in December of
23 1997 you came to discuss with Mr. Dandar some plan for
24 funding?
25 A At the time, as I recall, some of the
372
1 spokespersons for the Church of Scientology were talking
2 about Mr. Dandar as being an ambulance-chasing attorney, in
3 this case for the money, and Dell Liebreich being -- I think
4 the quote was a "money-grubbing old woman, trying to get
5 rich," something, you know, along those lines.
6 And, you know, I suggested to Mr. Dandar that in
7 order to mute that criticism by the Church of Scientology
8 against him and the estate, that, you know, the estate
9 would -- you know, that one way to do that would be the
10 estate would agree to donate a substantial part of the --
11 whatever proceeds they would get out of either a trial or
12 settlement to an anticult organization. And that --
13 Q Now --
14 A And that information should, you know, be made
15 known in advance so that this public criticism of the case
16 and its attorney and the estate would no longer be an issue.
17 Q Do you remember, if you can, how many discussions
18 like that you had with him before December 5, 1997?
19 A Well, there was just that one discussion, I
20 believe. And there was a subsequent discussion, I'm not
21 sure whether it was before December 5, but --
22 Q Well, if you'll look at your affidavit, sir, you
23 indicate that on Page 4 that: "Mr. Dandar told me on or
24 about December 5, 1997 he discussed this matter with the
25 family of Lisa McPherson and they agreed to donate the
373
1 'bulk' of any proceeds received after covering expenses and
2 Mr. Dandar's contingency fee to an anticult group."
3 MR. DANDAR: You know, I object to trying to
4 lead the witness by reading this affidavit which he
5 apparently doesn't remember what he said.
6 THE COURT: I think that is the problem,
7 Counselor. Apparently this man isn't able to
8 testify without having his affidavit shown to him,
9 then you have to wonder how valuable it is.
10 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I think he already
11 started down this road when we interrupted before
12 lunch. But I'll ask him.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q Do you recall where you were in December -- as you
15 sit here today, where you were in December of 1997, sir?
16 A Well, just to clear up a misunderstanding, you
17 asked me if there were more than one meeting prior to
18 December 5.
19 Q Right.
20 A To my recollection, there was only one meeting
21 prior to December 5. You know, the second meeting was on
22 December 5.
23 Q Do you remember where you were on December 5 of
24 1997?
25 A Mmm, I think I was in Mr. Dandar's office.
374
1 Q And what would you have been doing in
2 Clearwater -- or Tampa on December 5 of 1997?
3 A Well, that would have been the second anniversary
4 of Lisa McPherson's death. And I was here with a bunch of
5 other people to picket and protest against the Church of
6 Scientology over the Lisa McPherson matter.
7 Q And when you were at Mr. Dandar's office, what
8 happened?
9 A Well, referring back to the Tampa Club meeting on
10 December 1, Mr. Dandar told me that he had discussed the
11 matter with the family -- he didn't say with just Dell
12 Liebreich; he said the family -- concerning this concept of
13 donating the bulk of the proceeds or a substantial part of
14 the proceeds to an anticult organization. And that the
15 family had agreed that that is what they should do.
16 Q And at that point, in 1997, what -- what
17 anti-Scientology or anticult organization were you talking
18 about?
19 A Well, I'd actually suggested three organizations.
20 One I think was American Family Foundation. FACTNet, which
21 I was a part of or would soon be a part of. I was already
22 elected to the board of directors but only went into effect
23 from December 15 of --
24 THE COURT: What was the first one again?
25 THE WITNESS: American Family Foundation.
375
1 Short name, AFF.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 A Then there was a third one, which I can't remember
4 what it was.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Of the three, did you have any specific
7 discussions with Mr. Dandar about which organization you
8 would prefer?
9 A Well, obviously I was keener for him to make sure
10 that this happened with FACTNet as opposed to the other two.
11 Q Now, do you recall, after that meeting in December
12 that you just testified to, then testifying for the first
13 time in the deposition in Boston?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And do you recall testifying under oath in that
16 deposition that you did have an agreement with Mr. Dandar --
17 THE COURT: Do you know, the deal is you don't
18 use depositions unless you are going to use them to
19 impeach the witness. He just said he testified to
20 it.
21 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Do you recall in that testimony whether or not you
24 said that the bulk of the funds would be -- or recovery or
25 settlement would go to the anticult group?
376
1 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Improper question.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Was Mr. Dandar present at that deposition?
5 A Yes. He was.
6 Q Did he correct any of your statements that you
7 made under oath in that deposition?
8 A No. He didn't.
9 Q Now, after that deposition, did you have any
10 discussions with Mr. Dandar about further funding of the
11 Lisa McPherson case?
12 A Are you talking about October of '98?
13 Q No. I'm talking about the January of '98
14 deposition.
15 A Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. Mmm, well, you know, money
16 was always a topic. This wasn't -- you know, I don't
17 remember a specific discussion right after that deposition.
18 There was a discussion sometime in January or February.
19 Q Can you tell us what you remember about that
20 discussion?
21 A There was this --
22 THE COURT: This was in 1998?
23 MR. FUGATE: 1998, Judge.
24 A Right. Mr. Dandar was in Boston for -- I don't
25 remember whether it was a related or disrelated deposition.
377
1 But he was deposing somebody at Mass. General Hospital.
2 And during the lunch break that day, we met at a
3 Starbucks, which is on the corner of Cambridge Street and
4 Blossom Street, I believe. Well, it's across from exactly
5 where that Blossom Street enters Cambridge. It is on the
6 other side of the street.
7 And, you know, Mr. Dandar was trying to find out
8 more about the possibilities of a continuous source of
9 funding, you know, just kind of trying to assure himself
10 that this was not a one-time type event, you know, that
11 there was going to be a continuous source of funding for
12 this case.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q What did you tell him?
15 A Mmm, you know, I said, for the foreseeable future,
16 you know, I see being able to fund it.
17 That was also the time in which he brought up the
18 possibility of using any offshore moneys for funding the
19 case.
20 Q And what was that discussion, as you recall?
21 A Well, it started out by him saying, "Look, anybody
22 who has made as much money as you have must have substantial
23 funds offshore. And, you know, if you think that using
24 those would be helpful, fine."
25 Q Had you had any discussions about how much money
378
1 you had made, or things like that, before this?
2 A He had some idea. We'd discussed generally the
3 debt buyback business I had been involved in, and he had
4 some idea of the magnitudes of the amount -- the face amount
5 of debts that had been traded. And, you know, I think he
6 extrapolated more out of it than I told him. But he had
7 some idea.
8 Q Was there any other discussion about using
9 offshore funding at this '98 meeting?
10 A No.
11 Q Now, in 1997, the end of '97, the beginning of
12 1998, did you appear on a radio show, WRKO, and talk about
13 your funding of the litigation?
14 A I believe it was the Two Chicks Dishing Show, yes.
15 Q And do you recall making statements, public
16 statements, about the fact you were funding the Lisa
17 McPherson case and what you expected to get in return for
18 your funding?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And so, in addition to testifying about it at the
21 deposition, you were also publishing that or broadcasting
22 that on the public airways?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. DANDAR: Excuse me, could we have a date,
25 please?
379
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Do you recall specifically the date?
3 A It was early 1998. I don't know whether it was
4 January, February, something like that.
5 MR. DANDAR: Is that Paragraph 12?
6 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the clerk, your
7 Honor?
8 THE COURT: You may.
9 MR. FUGATE: This is going to be Defendant's
10 107, your Honor.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q I show you a copy of a transcript and ask if that
13 is the radio show that you were referring to?
14 A Yes, it is.
15 Q And does that date the show?
16 A Yes. December 9, 1997.
17 Q And is that the same radio show you were just
18 discussing?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And do you see in there where you indicated your
21 funding, what was going to happen with the funds?
22 A Are you talking about on the second page?
23 Q Uh-huh.
24 A Yes, I do. I see it. The number two point down
25 at the bottom, "Profit Loaded."
380
1 Q And what did you indicate?
2 A "The family of Lisa McPherson has agreed, and I
3 have announced this to the New York Times yesterday, that
4 the bulk of funds they get out of this wrongful death suit
5 will be donated to a cult awareness group so that there
6 won't be any more Lisa McPhersons."
7 Q Would that also indicate you talked to the New
8 York Times about your investment, as well?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. DANDAR: Objection as to the word
11 "investment." That does not appear in this posting
12 at all.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I didn't want to go into
14 it, I -- you asked the date.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q My question was did you talk to the New York Times
17 about your funding --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- of the Lisa McPherson case?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 THE COURT: Sustained as to the use of the word
22 "investment." I don't think it --
23 A Well --
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Let me ask you, did you have any belief as to what
381
1 your funding was doing with Mr. Dandar in the Lisa McPherson
2 wrongful death case?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q And what was that?
5 A Well, it was a means to secure a long-term funding
6 source to go after Scientology.
7 Q Now, in Paragraph 9 there is a reference to the
8 moneys that you provide. Do you have any recollection of
9 Mr. Dandar talking to you about what he felt that your
10 funding would do with regard to the Church?
11 THE COURT: Where are you, Counsel?
12 MR. FUGATE: Paragraph 9, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Are we done then, with this, 107?
14 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'm sorry, Judge.
15 MR. DANDAR: I object to the witness being
16 asked to read his affidavit to refresh his memory.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Well, let me ask you this, sir. Was there any
19 conversation about the ratio of money funded to cost to the
20 Church?
21 A Yes, there was.
22 Q What was that?
23 A Mmm, Mr. Dandar told me that for every dollar that
24 we spent, that they would spend at least 20. And this was a
25 commonly discussed matter among Scientology litigators --
382
1 anti-Scientology litigators in terms of how little money was
2 necessary to make Scientology spend a lot of money in
3 litigation. And Mr. Dandar had already picked up on this.
4 Q And you are saying Mr. Dandar, and who else were
5 you having those sorts of discussions with?
6 A Mmm, Mr. Leipold was well acquainted with that
7 concept. And, you know, and other people, Arnie Lerma,
8 Grady Ward, Keith Henson, who all were involved in some sort
9 of litigation with Scientology; it was discussed, you know,
10 face-to-face, and it was openly discussed on the Internet,
11 you know, the ratio. Some people's ratio was 40 to 1. Some
12 people, it was 10 to 1. But, you know, any dollar you spend
13 in litigation against Scientology was going to cost them a
14 lot more.
15 THE COURT: Well, that was -- of course, are we
16 trying to say there is something wrong with the
17 Church spending money to defend itself?
18 MR. FUGATE: No, Judge. We are not saying
19 there is something wrong with it.
20 THE COURT: Surely it is their choice to bring
21 in the number and quality of the lawyers they do.
22 You are not suggesting, are you, that you are not
23 needed to help Mr. Weinberg or that we don't need
24 the lawyers, Mr. Moxon and the gentleman, I have
25 forgotten, from New York, and --
383
1 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Hertzberg.
2 THE COURT: That is not Mr. Hertzberg.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Me, Judge.
4 THE COURT: Even though Mr. Hertzberg is
5 frequently here. And Mr. Lieberman.
6 This is not your choice, this is nothing
7 Mr. Dandar requires or requests or anything of the
8 sort. Right?
9 MR. FUGATE: Well, no, I think what his answer
10 was, Judge, which is what I was asking about, was
11 was it the intention of the funding to cost the
12 Church money. And I think he testified that is what
13 he -- he understood what happened and that is what
14 Mr. Dandar understood happened. And that is the
15 point.
16 THE WITNESS: It was a dividend.
17 THE COURT: What was a dividend?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, making Scientology spend a
19 lot of money on litigation was a dividend to anybody
20 putting money into litigation.
21 THE COURT: Because they would have less money
22 for something else? Was their ability to raise
23 funds ever an issue here? The Church of Scientology
24 has money, I take it, to -- most churches do.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, the -- the whole concept in
384
1 this, you know, sort of litigation enterprise was
2 that for Scientology to get money to litigate, they
3 had to go through their IAS war chest which they go
4 to their individual members to collect the money to
5 support their litigation. You know, I don't know
6 whether that is true, but that is what everybody
7 said was true.
8 And, you know, by financially putting pressure
9 on the people who were donating substantial amounts
10 to the Church, you were putting a substantial amount
11 of pressure on Scientologists, on the Church, in
12 terms of their ability to, you know, use other --
13 use that money for other things.
14 THE COURT: I see.
15 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 THE WITNESS: I mean, for example, your Honor,
18 we used to think that it would cut down on
19 harassment, you know. If they were having to raise
20 all this money for litigation, they would have less
21 time to harass people.
22 THE COURT: I --
23 THE WITNESS: Less time and money.
24 THE COURT: I was having a hard time figuring
25 out what was being said. But I understand now.
385
1 Thank you.
2 Let's see. Well, I'm not going to go there.
3 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll hand him two postings.
4 The first one will be 108. The second will be 109.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Mr. Minton, just for purposes -- I'll show you
7 copies of two postings. The first will be Defendant's 108.
8 And the second will be 109.
9 THE COURT: You want to tell me which is which?
10 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. The February -- wait
11 a minute. I think I better check with the clerk
12 before I -- the February 2000 is 109. The May 28,
13 '99 is 108.
14 THE WITNESS: Mr. Fugate, I believe I have two
15 copies of the same one.
16 MR. FUGATE: Do you? Well, that is my fault
17 then.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, but I marked "108" and
19 "109" on them.
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, it can't be. Let's look
21 here and see what you have here. You do.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 MR. FUGATE: So this would be 109.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Can you give the dates to me
386
1 again?
2 MR. FUGATE: Yes. As soon as I get back.
3 Judge, let me get organized here. The first
4 one which is dated 5/28/99 is 108. And the second
5 one which is dated 2/2/00 is 109.
6 Is that correct, Madam Clerk?
7 THE CLERK: Yes.
8 THE COURT: I have them just the opposite.
9 5/28/99 is what number, Madam Clerk, at the top?
10 THE CLERK: 5/28/99 is 108.
11 THE COURT: The one at the top dated
12 February 2, '00 is?
13 THE CLERK: 109.
14 THE COURT: Okay, I have got it.
15 MR. FUGATE: If I could just take a look at
16 them, Judge.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Were you, sir, aware that the family members, that
19 is, Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson, Lee Skelton, had all
20 testified about the understanding -- their understanding of
21 what the bulk of the proceeds would be -- how the bulk of
22 the proceeds would be treated?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q How were you aware of that?
25 A Mmm, through Mr. Dandar.
387
1 Q And, in fact, if you look at 108, were you in
2 communication with Mr. Dandar on or around May 28, 1999
3 about the depositions of the family members?
4 A Yes. I believe -- Mmm, I believe that Mr. Dandar
5 had invited me down to Dallas for this while he was there
6 for these depositions.
7 Q Did you go?
8 A I didn't.
9 THE COURT: So your knowledge of what they said
10 is based on what Mr. Dandar told you. Is that it?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, at the time of this posting
12 it was, yes. I have since read the depositions.
13 THE COURT: Are you -- are you clear, from a
14 reading of the depositions, that what Mr. Dandar
15 told you is accurate?
16 THE WITNESS: It seemed pretty accurate. Yeah.
17 THE COURT: Because my recollection is, in
18 reading the little bit that was provided to me -- I
19 mean, I glanced over these depositions -- I was not
20 quite so clear as to what they were saying. But,
21 anyway, in any event, that is all right.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Now, were you aware that the depositions of -- of
24 the family members were confidential at that point in time,
25 in other words, they weren't to be disclosed, by agreement
388
1 with all of the parties?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay. So if that were the case --
4 THE COURT: Is that pursuant to any court
5 order, by the way?
6 MR. FUGATE: Yes, it was the order we discussed
7 earlier with your Honor where everybody agreed to
8 that, because there had been -- at this point in
9 history, the criminal investigation was pending, and
10 so the discovery could go forward --
11 THE COURT: Really all I needed was a yes. And
12 the answer is yes?
13 MR. FUGATE: The answer is yes.
14 THE COURT: By who?
15 MR. FUGATE: Judge Moody.
16 MR. DANDAR: It was up to the deponent to keep
17 it confidential or not.
18 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, what would
19 happen, your Honor, in every deposition the deponent
20 would be given the option. And in this case the
21 family members chose that they would be kept
22 confidential at the end of the depo.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Can I ask you to look at 108, and see if you can
389
1 identify that posting as a posting that you made, sir.
2 A Yes, it is.
3 Q And was it made on or about 5/28/99?
4 A Yes.
5 MR. FUGATE: I would move 108 into evidence.
6 THE COURT: Any objection?
7 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
8 THE COURT: It will be received.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q And do you see the second paragraph which is a
11 highlighted reference to another $100,000 to refill the Lisa
12 McPherson case coffers?
13 A Right.
14 Q Do you show a check of $100,000 being produced to
15 Mr. Dandar there in 1999, in May?
16 A Yes, I do. 93D, I believe it is.
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, usually you-all
18 highlight this. Where are you? What one are you
19 referring to?
20 MR. FUGATE: Just above the highlighting, it
21 says, "Another $100,000 being donated to the
22 coffers."
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Tell me, where did you get the information
25 reflected in the highlighted portion of 108?
390
1 A From Mr. Dandar.
2 Q And do you recall, if you weren't there at the
3 depositions, how you got the information that you have set
4 out that: "Ken was in Dallas as the Scieno's deposed Dell
5 Liebreich for 7 hours, not to mention 30 minutes for Ann
6 Carlson. Ken told me on Monday night it was the 'Bob and
7 Ken' show for the entire 7-hour intimidation session. They
8 were only interested about his communications with me and
9 what Ken had told her about his communications with me."
10 Where did you get that information?
11 A From Mr. Dandar.
12 Q Did you understand from him that is what was being
13 inquired at, at the deposition?
14 A That's right. That is what I understood.
15 Q Did he tell you generally what they were
16 testifying about as far as the arrangement or agreement that
17 they were describing?
18 A Yes. I believe he mentioned that with respect to
19 at least one of the sisters. I don't remember whether it
20 was Dell, or Ann Carlson or Lee Skelton.
21 THE COURT: How many times have these folks
22 been deposed?
23 MR. FUGATE: You mean -- by -- by these folks,
24 you mean Dell --
25 THE COURT: Not Dell. Ms. Carlson and
391
1 Ms. Skelton and --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about at that
3 point in time?
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 MR. WEINBERG: That was the first time.
6 THE COURT: So just once?
7 MR. DANDAR: At that time, it was only once.
8 MR. WEINBERG: That was the first time.
9 MR. DANDAR: Ms. Carlson has been deposed
10 twice, flew here for her third deposition April 2nd
11 but was never deposed.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What happened, we went to May --
14 we went to Dallas in May of '99 and deposed
15 Ms. Liebreich for the second time. She had been
16 deposed in '97. And deposed for the first time
17 Ms. Carlson for a little while. She got hurt while
18 she was there. And --
19 MR. FUGATE: She fell, actually.
20 MR. WEINBERG: She fell down. We --
21 MR. FUGATE: We agreed to continue the
22 deposition.
23 MR. DANDAR: The one on April 2nd was her --
24 the third scheduled deposition of Ms. Carlson --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
392
1 MR. DANDAR: -- who is like 83 years old.
2 THE COURT: Stop here just a second. I want to
3 look at something.
4 Okay, you can go on now. I'm not finding what
5 I wanted to find, so go ahead. I just didn't want
6 to miss anything while I was off looking.
7 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Do you recognize the posting that is Defendant's
10 Exhibit 109 for identification?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q And is that a posting by you, sir?
13 A It is.
14 Q And the date is February 2nd, 2000. Is that at or
15 around the time you issued it?
16 A That is correct.
17 MR. FUGATE: I move Defendant's 109 into
18 evidence.
19 THE COURT: Any objection?
20 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
21 THE COURT: It will be received.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q And if you turn to the highlighted portion, let me
24 just ask you, is this again another public posting as to
25 your understanding of what is to be done with the majority
393
1 or the bulk of any settlement proceeds?
2 A That is correct. The top part.
3 Q Yes.
4 MR. DANDAR: I object. The word "bulk" is not
5 used in the posting.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Well, you say: "The family of Lisa McPherson has
8 given their full support, as you know, promised to give the
9 vast majority of any settlement or reward from the trial to
10 the Lisa McPherson Trust."
11 THE COURT: That is another expression. We
12 have "bulk of."
13 MR. FUGATE: Vast.
14 THE COURT: "Vast majority." That is not what
15 he used earlier. What did you say, "major part of"?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, "substantial part."
17 THE COURT: "Substantial part." Right.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q This post was after the formation of the Lisa
21 McPherson Trust, is that correct?
22 A That is correct. Yes.
23 Q And at the time of this posting, which is February
24 of 2000, what was your understanding of what the settlement
25 or the award was likely to be in the wrongful death case?
394
1 A Mmm, I think Mr. Dandar was still talking in the
2 neighborhood of 80-odd million at the time.
3 THE COURT: How much did you think you were
4 going to get?
5 THE WITNESS: Who? Me?
6 THE COURT: Yes. You are the one that is
7 saying you were going to get this. What were you
8 going to get?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, minus Mr. Dandar's
10 contingency fee, you know, which I think is like
11 40 percent, so that would be $32 million off the
12 top, the family would keep some money.
13 THE COURT: How much? How much? Come on,
14 Mr. Minton. You are a businessman. You sat down
15 and he said, "I'm going to get 80 million bucks out
16 of this." And you said, "Well, I want X"? Or did
17 you talk "bulk, vast amounts, majority"?
18 THE WITNESS: That is the way we talked, your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: You never said, "I want -- my deal
21 here is I want 40 -- 40 grand -- 40 million"?
22 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Or, "I want 60 million"?
24 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: How much were you going to sue for
395
1 if you didn't get it? The "vast amount"? The
2 "bulk"? What was it?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you have to
4 understand at that time the people who were involved
5 in this trusted each other. You know, I am --
6 THE COURT: I see people fight over about 500
7 bucks. And you are telling me that all these folks
8 were just going to get together and agree on what
9 kind of a multi-million dollar check they were going
10 to write because they trusted each other?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you have to
12 understand the background from which I have come
13 about this. In my business dealings, you know, the
14 people that I dealt with in business were people who
15 had to keep their word. Otherwise, you would be
16 weeded out of this business. People did
17 transactions in the billions of dollars cumulatively
18 based on nothing more than a handshake, a phone
19 conversation.
20 THE COURT: There were advantages, weren't
21 there, Mr. Minton, into not putting things -- when
22 people are dealing in millions, billions -- in
23 writing?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 THE COURT: No tax advantage, none of that
396
1 stuff?
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm talking about
3 dealing with the biggest financial institutions in
4 the world. You know, these weren't --
5 THE COURT: Who? Tell me what big financial
6 places you deal with in the billions of dollars who
7 don't put their agreements in writing.
8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I may --
9 THE COURT: No. I want you to answer that.
10 You are telling me you deal with institutions and
11 you deal with millions and billions and they don't
12 put things in writing, they just make these
13 agreements on a simple handshake. Who are they?
14 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, at this
15 time, Mr. Minton, I believe, wishes to raise a
16 privilege to the Court's inquiry, with all due
17 respect.
18 THE WITNESS: Well --
19 THE COURT: Is that true?
20 THE WITNESS: No. That is not true, your
21 Honor.
22 THE COURT: Well, then you either have a Fifth
23 Amendment or you don't. If you don't want to waive
24 it, if you want to exert it, that is fine.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, this is a very clear-cut
397
1 matter, Mr. Howie.
2 What I'm talking about is if you say -- if I
3 call up, say, Chase Manhattan Bank in London and I
4 wish to purchase from them or they wish to purchase
5 from me, say, $50 million worth of debt of some
6 third-world country, you know, on the basis of that
7 phone call we agree to a transaction that, you know,
8 at a certain price on a certain date that that debt
9 will be delivered by whichever side is agreeing to
10 sell it to whichever side is agreeing to buy it.
11 And the price is fixed.
12 THE COURT: Yes, you have a fixed price.
13 THE WITNESS: And a fixed amount of debt.
14 THE COURT: Fixed amount.
15 THE WITNESS: And the debt has to be, you know,
16 documented in terms of -- you know, the instruments
17 have to be instruments that are acceptable to the
18 party who is buying it.
19 THE COURT: Does the bank let you say, "I want
20 to buy a vast amount of debt," or "substantial
21 amount," or "bulk of the amount"? Or do they want a
22 dollars figure?
23 THE WITNESS: They want a Deutsche mark or
24 dollar or whatever currency figure. They want to
25 know how much you want to buy. Or how much you
398
1 want -- how much you are selling.
2 THE COURT: Tell me, what institution is it you
3 deal with that would allow you to conduct business
4 with things like "the bulk, I want the bulk of the
5 amount, I want the vast amount," anything like that?
6 THE WITNESS: That wouldn't happen, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Of course not. So that is why I
8 asked you, surely -- surely if you thought you had
9 an agreement here, you had some amount.
10 Ms. Liebreich and the sisters and Mr. Dandar
11 and you sat down and said, "There is $80 million. I
12 want 65 of it." Or, "I want 25."
13 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't think it was
14 ever specified in anything other than 80 percent.
15 THE COURT: Oh, let's see now. Now you
16 remember, do you, Mr. Minton, that it was
17 80 percent?
18 THE WITNESS: No, I remember that was discussed
19 one time. You know, I'm not saying that anybody --
20 we were trying to define the term "bulk." 75,
21 80 percent, 85, 90.
22 But it was after Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar's
23 fee. Everything started after Mr. Dandar's fee.
24 And the costs. Whatever costs that weren't covered
25 by me that related to this litigation were part of
399
1 this "bulk," you know, the remainder of whatever
2 the -- the total amount would be from trial or
3 settlement.
4 THE COURT: So you sat down with Ms. Liebreich
5 and you said, "Now, I want 80 percent of what is
6 remaining, is that okay with you?"
7 THE WITNESS: No. I discussed that with
8 Mr. Dandar.
9 THE COURT: You said to him, "I want
10 80 percent"?
11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say "I want
12 80 percent." We talked about what is the "bulk."
13 75, 80. Even Scientology was trying to get me to
14 answer that question in a deposition, as well.
15 THE COURT: What? What it was?
16 THE WITNESS: What it was.
17 THE COURT: Sure. Because nobody would know.
18 Right?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there were -- no,
20 nobody would know.
21 THE COURT: And now maybe you are used to
22 wheeling and dealing in millions and billions with
23 firm figures. But now -- I don't know because I
24 don't know much about Ms. Liebreich and I know less
25 about Ms. Skelton and these other ladies, but surely
400
1 they don't deal in the millions and billions and
2 stuff like that. So surely you would want to get
3 something from those folks. I mean, what did you
4 sit down and talk with them about an agreement?
5 THE WITNESS: I trusted Mr. Dandar, your Honor.
6 And that was a mistake.
7 THE COURT: Well, you know, Mr. Minton, mistake
8 or no mistake, that is one bad business deal.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm --
10 THE COURT: I mean, don't ever make that deal
11 with me or anybody else, or any lawyer I know of.
12 That is no deal. You say you had a deal with the
13 estate and you never talked to them. You talked
14 with Mr. Dandar and you don't even know what you
15 talked about with him because there were no figures.
16 Now, I have said this before and I'm going to
17 tell you-all, you could not have brought a suit, a
18 lawsuit or anything else, on the basis of whatever
19 it is you-all talked about. Could you?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, maybe, maybe not, your
21 Honor. I'm not going to --
22 THE COURT: You are not going to concede that?
23 If they gave you a million bucks and you don't get
24 the bulk of it, you're going to go into court
25 somewhere and try to get it. Is that it?
401
1 THE WITNESS: Not anymore.
2 THE COURT: Oh. Well, what happened to undo
3 the agreement? I mean, a deal is a deal. Right?
4 THE WITNESS: I don't want any more things to
5 do with this. That is why I'm trying to sit down
6 and talk about settlement with the Church of
7 Scientology. I want out of this completely, your
8 Honor.
9 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what that has to
10 do with the deal you had with Ms. Liebreich and her
11 brother and sisters.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, here
13 is the thing. Everybody else seemed to think there
14 was a deal, Ms. Liebreich, Mr. Dandar, me, and all
15 of the people around us, and all around the Lisa
16 McPherson Trust. You know, maybe we were all wrong.
17 Maybe we were all smoking dope. But everybody
18 seemed to think there was a deal.
19 THE COURT: But you can't tell me what it was?
20 THE WITNESS: I told you the best I could.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, you know, I'm sorry, I
22 don't deal like that. I mean, I'm getting ready to
23 buy a house. They tell me how much they want, they
24 put it in writing, it's on a piece of paper, I know
25 exactly what kind of check I have to write. That is
402
1 how I make deals. That is how people loan me money.
2 I rather suspect Ms. Liebreich and her
3 sisters -- even though, I don't know, maybe they are
4 multi-millionaires, I expect that is how they
5 borrow, deal, do things, too.
6 I just can't really believe, in good
7 conscience, you are trying to come in and tell me
8 you had some sort of a firm deal with these ladies.
9 And I don't even know where the brother is
10 from. Have you ever talked to him or seen him?
11 THE WITNESS: I have never talked to him.
12 THE COURT: So you have a deal with somebody
13 you have never seen or never talked to.
14 Did Mr. Dandar ever tell you he talked to him?
15 THE WITNESS: Of course he did.
16 THE COURT: What did he tell you the brother
17 said?
18 THE WITNESS: He didn't say anything about the
19 brother. As far as I know, he's talking to Dell
20 Liebreich, the personal representative of the
21 estate, the sisters, Dell and Ann, who are the only
22 ones. I didn't even know there was a brother until
23 recently, you know.
24 Your Honor, as ridiculous as it may seem to be,
25 everybody who was involved in this thought there was
403
1 a deal.
2 THE COURT: Well, there might have been a deal,
3 and I'm not -- you know, I don't know what that deal
4 was and neither do you. But what I do know is you
5 had no agreement.
6 THE WITNESS: We had no written agreement.
7 THE COURT: And you had no oral agreement. You
8 can't tell me what it is.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I told you, it was the
10 "bulk." What is the "bulk"? I'm sorry, your Honor,
11 I can't -- I can't make this up out of thin air.
12 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Minton, it was your deal,
13 not mine. I'm asking you to tell me what it was.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm telling you what the deal
15 was.
16 THE COURT: What was it?
17 THE WITNESS: The "bulk."
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: After Mr. Dandar's contingency
20 fee.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Did you understand, from Mr. Dandar, that whatever
23 dollar amount you were talking about would be less whatever
24 his contingency fee was?
25 A Yes. That was always off the top.
404
1 Q Did you understand, from talking to Mr. Dandar, if
2 Ms. Liebreich, as the personal representative, had any
3 monetary investment in the case? Do you understand what I'm
4 asking?
5 A I didn't understand that.
6 Q Okay. In other words, you don't know whether she
7 had any money invested in the case or not?
8 A Oh, no. She didn't.
9 Q Okay. And to your knowledge, who was investing
10 the bulk of the money that was being used to fund the Lisa
11 McPherson case?
12 THE COURT: The "bulk"? Here we are at the
13 "bulk." You just said Ms. Liebreich didn't have
14 any.
15 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me rephrase it.
16 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the word "investing."
17 THE COURT: I sustain that.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q How much money did you ultimately put into the
20 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
21 A Mmm --
22 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered four or five
23 times.
24 THE COURT: Sustained, unless there is more he
25 hasn't told us about.
405
1 MR. FUGATE: I just was trying to fix --
2 THE COURT: No. He already told us. We've
3 gone through the checks. I have them here. They
4 are in evidence. If there is something else he
5 hasn't told us -- if he told us about all of it, I
6 don't want to go through it again.
7 MR. FUGATE: All right.
8 THE COURT: Do you know if anybody else gave
9 money to this lawsuit?
10 THE WITNESS: In recent months, there have
11 been, you know, a few thousand dollars, at the most,
12 donated to Mr. Dandar.
13 THE COURT: And you know that how?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar told me in
15 February when he was in New Hampshire that he had
16 received, I think, $600, but he was expecting some
17 more.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: You know, this was part of that
20 posting that was on the Internet by Dell Liebreich,
21 you know, soliciting money.
22 THE COURT: I do remember that. Yes.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q So as far as you knew, you were providing most of
25 the funds, whatever they were?
406
1 A Yes, I was.
2 Q And had you ever had any conversation with Dell
3 Liebreich about what you termed the agreement was?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And can you tell the Court what that was?
6 A Mmm, you know, I -- there were a couple of
7 conversations.
8 The first one that I remember is at the board
9 meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust in December of 2000.
10 And after that board meeting, you know, I thanked
11 Mrs. Liebreich for her commitment to the LMT and for
12 endowing this organization for the future. And in the
13 discussion, I used the word the "bulk" of the proceeds.
14 That is the best, you know, discussion of the amount that
15 ever was.
16 Q And in that conversation then, you did not define
17 "bulk," I take it?
18 A I didn't.
19 Q And she did not define "bulk," I take it?
20 A No. Mr. Dandar had -- we had a discussion about
21 this. And I believe I -- well, we had -- Mr. Dandar and I
22 had a discussion about this and I'd asked him early on -- by
23 early on I mean sometime in 1998 -- whether the family was
24 okay financially, or whether they actually needed money.
25 And he said that, you know, all of them were
407
1 retired, you know, they had sufficient income to live on, so
2 it wasn't like they were looking for, you know, a huge
3 windfall out of this.
4 Q And was it your understanding that you were going
5 to -- if the case were successful, there would be enough
6 money to pay back what you had put in, as well as fund the
7 anticult organization that you were talking about?
8 A Well, with the amount -- with the numbers that
9 were being bandied about, yes, that was clearly the
10 likelihood that there would be more than enough money to
11 take care of Mr. Dandar's contingency fee, pay me back the
12 principal amount of what I loaned to the estate, and fund
13 this anticult group that would, you know, forever be on the
14 Scientology case.
15 MR. DANDAR: Object --
16 THE COURT: Well, specifically, I believe you
17 said LMT.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, at that stage, yes.
19 THE COURT: Of course, they don't even exist
20 anymore. So where is it going now? The case hasn't
21 happened yet.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I covered it. This was a
23 matter discussed with Mr. Dandar, even probably the
24 day before I had this check for $250,000 issued on
25 May 7.
408
1 THE COURT: Well, where was it going? What did
2 he say then?
3 THE WITNESS: To a group that Stacy Brooks and
4 I would set up.
5 THE COURT: Another group?
6 THE WITNESS: Another group.
7 THE COURT: So -- so whatever testimony you had
8 about the LMT and it going to the LMT, once you and
9 Ms. Brooks decided to close that down, whatever that
10 deal was couldn't happen anymore. Right?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, it is sort of
12 like the whole FACTNet thing, you know, and when --
13 back -- you know, I have to go through the history
14 of this, because when this whole thing was
15 originally started, we were talking about FACTNet.
16 And FACTNet was sued by -- had already been sued by
17 the Religious Technology Center for copyright
18 infringement. Sometime in, I think, March or April
19 of 1999 we settled that litigation with the Church
20 of Scientology, you know, entered into this
21 liquidated damages clause of a million dollars, and
22 Ms. Brooks and I at that time felt that we would be
23 better off not staying in FACTNet because of this
24 potential liquidated damages thing hanging over our
25 heads. And we both eventually resigned from the
409
1 board of directors of that and began the process of
2 setting up a new organization.
3 And during the summer of -- of 1999, that
4 organization became the Lisa McPherson-something.
5 And this was following these depositions that
6 happened. Mr. Dandar told me that Dell Liebreich
7 wanted an organization named after Lisa.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q May of 1999?
10 A Those depositions. Yeah.
11 Q You have testified to?
12 A Yes.
13 Q When was the Lisa McPherson Trust formed --
14 actually incorporated, if you remember?
15 A I think it was October or November of 1999.
16 Q And was that the organization then that took the
17 place of FACTNet, as far as you understood, for your
18 agreement?
19 A Yes. And keep in mind that, you know, there
20 wasn't any rush to do anything here. It took several months
21 to get people in place who were going to come down here to
22 Clearwater to, you know, man this new organization. And,
23 yeah, that -- that was it, from that point forward.
24 THE COURT: And so -- well, let's see. I think
25 you said you had a discussion with Dell Liebreich on
410
1 12/00, December of 2000, at the -- was it the board
2 meeting?
3 THE WITNESS: That was the second board
4 meeting, actually. The first board meeting, which
5 was more of an organizational meeting, it was
6 after -- let's see, the organizational meeting took
7 place, you know, around that December 5, the year
8 before. December 5 -- or December 2000 was after
9 the first year of operation. And that was the --
10 the first, you know, board meeting after we'd been
11 operating in Clearwater.
12 THE COURT: Is that the board meeting at which
13 you had this conversation with Ms. Liebreich?
14 THE WITNESS: That is one of the conversations.
15 Yes.
16 THE COURT: Is that the first one?
17 THE WITNESS: No. I believe the year before
18 there was a conversation about it at this Ruth Chris
19 steak house over by Mr. Dandar's office.
20 THE COURT: One is at a steak house, and one is
21 after a meeting, the meeting you were talking about
22 that you just testified about here I believe a half
23 hour ago where you thanked her for her commitment,
24 was in the December 2000 board meeting of some sort?
25 THE WITNESS: That's right.
411
1 THE COURT: Okay. And you said at that time,
2 "I want to thank you for your commitment," and what
3 else did you say?
4 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, "And for agreeing
5 to fund this organization in perpetuity," basically,
6 you know.
7 THE COURT: Well, I'm sure she understood that.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I didn't use that
9 word, your Honor, but -- you know, I don't remember
10 the exact word. But it was concerning the proceeds
11 of this case.
12 THE COURT: So --
13 THE WITNESS: You know, I wasn't trying to pull
14 anything over on this lady. This wasn't any --
15 THE COURT: And what did she say? What did she
16 say?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, she thanked me, you know,
18 for providing the -- the money for this case. You
19 know, I mean, this was a -- you know, we were both
20 beholding to each other on this.
21 THE COURT: Okay. So when did LMT get out of
22 business?
23 THE WITNESS: Mmm --
24 THE COURT: 2001, was it?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
412
1 THE COURT: Then did Ms. Liebreich call you and
2 say, "Well, Bob, where do I send the money when I
3 get it?"
4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Did you call her and say, "Look, I
6 know LMT doesn't exist, but we've got a deal here,
7 and I'm going to set up something else, and I want
8 you to understand that I want the money"?
9 THE WITNESS: I discussed it with Mr. Dandar.
10 THE COURT: In March of 2002?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: What did you tell Mr. Dandar in
13 March of 2002?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, I told him at that time I
15 wanted this agreement in writing.
16 THE COURT: Oh. Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: And he said he couldn't do it
18 because it would destroy the case, we have to keep
19 it secret.
20 MR. FUGATE: Could I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 THE WITNESS: And that was the day before, you
23 know, I had this check for $250,000 issued.
24 THE COURT: That is the bank check?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the March 7, 2002.
413
1 THE COURT: What do we call this? Is this a
2 check? A draft?
3 THE WITNESS: A check.
4 THE COURT: March 7, 2002?
5 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I have an exhibit, let
8 me see if I can put my hand on it. It is
9 probably -- bear with me a moment, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm just beside myself. For the
11 life of me, you thought somebody would get
12 $80 million. Let's do this. 80 million is what you
13 said you all were hoping for?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, minus 32.
15 THE COURT: Let's do this. 40 percent would be
16 32 million. I used to -- when I was with the IRS, I
17 couldn't deal with these kinds of figures until --
18 so I just lopped off zeroes.
19 THE WITNESS: Drop off all of the zeroes.
20 THE COURT: Yes. I used to go out as a field
21 auditor and I would go into Winn Dixie and some
22 mega-million dollar company, and it was just too big
23 for me, and I would just lop off a bunch of zeroes
24 and I could figure out what I was dealing with.
25 But now 80 million, here, 32 million, what does
414
1 that leave us?
2 MR. DANDAR: 68.
3 MR. WEINBERG: 58.
4 THE COURT: 58 million.
5 MR. WEINBERG: 48.
6 THE COURT: 48 million, right. 48 million.
7 Now we're going to take off, up to date, 2,000,150
8 for what you have put in.
9 THE WITNESS: 2,000,050.
10 THE COURT: We'll just round this off. Can I
11 round it off to 2 million, because I have a bunch of
12 zeroes out here. This is just for a hypothetical,
13 okay, plus or minus $50,000.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 THE COURT: Now we're down to $46 million.
16 Right?
17 And so you just thought a good old handshake
18 between you and Mr. Dandar and a good old chat with
19 Ms. Liebreich where you never even discussed the
20 terms was good enough for the bulk of $46 million?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Wow! Okay.
23 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your
24 Honor?
25 THE COURT: You may.
415
1 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to hand you, Judge, what
2 has been marked for identification as Defendant's
3 Exhibit Number 110, and a copy to you, Mr. Minton.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q I'll ask you if you can take a moment to look at
6 Defendant's Exhibit 110.
7 A Yes. I know what it is.
8 Q Have you had a chance to read it?
9 A I have read it before.
10 Q First of all, did you receive this Defendant's
11 Exhibit 110 on or about February 26, 2002?
12 A Yes. I did.
13 Q Did you receive it unsigned, as we see it here?
14 A It was sent as an E-Mail attachment.
15 Q And it was sent as an E-Mail from who, sir?
16 A Well, I got it twice, I believe. Once from
17 Dr. Garko -- well, I think I got it first from Mr. Dandar,
18 and then subsequently from Dr. Garko -- no, no, actually, I
19 got a draft of it from Dr. Garko first, then from
20 Mr. Dandar.
21 Q You see it has "Dandar & Dandar, Attorneys" on it.
22 Is that how you got it from Mr. Dandar?
23 A Yes. This is the form in which it came.
24 MR. FUGATE: I would move this into evidence,
25 your Honor, as Defendant's Exhibit 110 for this
416
1 hearing.
2 MR. DANDAR: I would object. I don't see a
3 signature on this. I would like him to produce the
4 original and mark that, instead --
5 THE COURT: Well, I mean --
6 MR. DANDAR: -- because I don't know what this
7 is unless I see my signature on it. So I would
8 object to it.
9 MR. FUGATE: I think he just testified it had
10 no signature on it.
11 THE COURT: It came as an attachment to an
12 E-Mail.
13 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Are you identifying this as what
15 you got?
16 THE WITNESS: It is what I got.
17 MR. DANDAR: Then where is the E-Mail that came
18 with it?
19 THE COURT: Do you have it?
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Do you have it, Mr. Minton?
22 A I gave it to the Church of Scientology.
23 THE COURT: Well, then they have it. Then
24 we'll have the whole thing.
25 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, can I proceed with
417
1 questions about this?
2 THE COURT: I don't know. He said he objected
3 to it. I mean, you just can't put in some document
4 if the person who wrote it says I don't know if this
5 is it or not. He doesn't know because it came on
6 E-Mail.
7 MR. FUGATE: So Mr. Dandar is saying he didn't
8 send this to Mr. --
9 THE COURT: No, he's saying he doesn't know if
10 he sent it or not, unless he can see his signature
11 or the E-Mail. So we need the E-Mail.
12 THE WITNESS: This letter is the letter I
13 referred to as the suck-up letter.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q That you referred to in Paragraph 49 of your
16 affidavit?
17 A Somewhere in my affidavit. I'll check. Yes, that
18 is the one.
19 Q And although it is not admitted, did you receive
20 this in conjunction --
21 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar, how about reading
22 this thing and tell us if this is the letter you
23 sent?
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I would love to, but I
25 heard him say Dr. Garko sent him a draft of the
418
1 letter, so I don't know if this is the draft or the
2 one I sent.
3 THE COURT: Well, I sure don't know. You would
4 be the one most able to tell us.
5 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to see if I can find it.
6 THE COURT: You see if you can find it, then
7 we'll --
8 MR. FUGATE: Could we take a break?
9 THE COURT: Yes, we'll go ahead, it has been a
10 while. We'll take our afternoon break. Let's find
11 out if this is your document. If it is, it needs to
12 come into evidence.
13 But I think the E-Mail that went with it would
14 be of some interest.
15 MR. DANDAR: That would help.
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, how long will that
17 be?
18 THE COURT: Twenty minutes.
19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 3:25 to 3:40 p.m.)
20 _________________________________________
21 THE COURT: You may be seated and you may
22 continue.
23 What do we know about this letter?
24 MR. FUGATE: Here is what happened as you
25 exited.
419
1 MR. DANDAR: We have no objection to the
2 letter.
3 MR. FUGATE: So we want to make sure we have a
4 complete record here --
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. FUGATE: -- as you left, Mr. Minton handed
7 to me a copy of a signed letter with a fax legend on
8 it and a copy of, apparently, an E-Mail transmission
9 letter, which I think these are both the originals.
10 I'm going to ask him to identify those, then
11 I'll ask these be marked. I have made copies and
12 given them to Mr. Dandar.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q Did you just give the letter with Mr. Dandar's
15 signature on it and the fax legend on top, and the one
16 without a signature, the E-Mail path on it, to me just
17 before the break?
18 A Yes. I did.
19 Q And did these -- where did they come from?
20 A Well, when I went back to New Hampshire recently,
21 I don't even remember when I went back there, but the fax
22 copy was up there. The printout that I had done was when I
23 was down here before, which was the E-Mail that came to me,
24 which was unsigned. But Mr. Dandar had sent a fax. So one
25 is the E-Mail printout, and one is the fax letter that
420
1 Mr. Dandar's signature is on.
2 MR. FUGATE: Just for the sake of the record,
3 Judge, I would like to maybe make these a composite
4 of all three letters, the one I handed up that
5 didn't have a signature, the one with the E-Mail
6 path, and the one that was a fax, so we can identify
7 what we're talking about, because I didn't have the
8 other two.
9 MR. DANDAR: Well, I didn't have the other two.
10 THE COURT: You didn't have the E-Mail he said
11 you did? Was he mistaken about that?
12 MR. FUGATE: Well, I didn't have it.
13 THE COURT: Had you given the Church of
14 Scientology that E-Mail?
15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, not this one, but the same
16 one -- this actually was just a print from a screen,
17 a print screen.
18 THE COURT: But you had provided it to them?
19 THE WITNESS: I did.
20 THE COU